[arin-ppml] Clean up definition of LIR/ISP vs. end-user

Tue Apr 30 19:52:39 EDT 2013

Steven Ryerse wrote:
I believe that Arin and this community need to adopt a similar set of
policies like have been proposed in Europe
https://www.ripe.net/ripe/policies/proposals/2013-03  This would require a
wholesale rewrite of a lot of policies which I am not capable of doing -
but removing the needs requirements in all policies and just instituting
right-sizing policies would be in line with Arin’s mission and be best for
all.  I would support anyone willing to take the time to submit a proposal
to Arin similar to the one above that has been proposed for RIPE.

Steven, please tell what right-sizing means to you and how that differs
from assigning addresses according to an explicit need...
Thanks,
bd

On Tue, Apr 30, 2013 at 3:34 PM, Steven Ryerse <SRyerse at eclipse-networks.com
> wrote:

>  I agree with Daniel.  I strongly believe it is Arin’s charter and
> mission to further the Internet and not impede access to it.  Debating
> about what an organization is doing on the Internet or what they are called
> is really a discussion on how to limit access to the Internet.  I don’t
> believe that Arin should be trying to deny or limit an organization’s
> access to the Internet.  I believe Arin should be trying to expand the
> Internet for good of everyone as was done before Arin’s existence.  I’m all
> for right sizing an organizations access with reasonable polices but I am
> not in favor of policies that have the sole purpose of denying or
> restricting access to the Internet.  ****
>
> ** **
>
> I believe that Arin and this community need to adopt a similar set of
> policies like have been proposed in Europe
> https://www.ripe.net/ripe/policies/proposals/2013-03  This would require
> a wholesale rewrite of a lot of policies which I am not capable of doing -
> but removing the needs requirements in all policies and just instituting
> right-sizing policies would be in line with Arin’s mission and be best for
> all.  I would support anyone willing to take the time to submit a proposal
> to Arin similar to the one above that has been proposed for RIPE.  ****
>
> ** **
>
> *Steven L Ryerse*
>
> *President*
>
> *100 Ashford Center North, Suite 110, Atlanta, GA  30338*
>
> *770.656.1460 - Cell*
>
> *770.399.9099 - Office*
>
> *770.392-0076 - Fax*
>
> ** **
>
> [image: Description: Description: Description: Eclipse Networks
> Logo_small.png]℠ Eclipse Networks, Inc.****
>
>         Conquering Complex Networks℠****
>
> ** **
>
> *From:* arin-ppml-bounces at arin.net [mailto:arin-ppml-bounces at arin.net] *On
> Behalf Of *Alexander, Daniel
> *Sent:* Tuesday, April 30, 2013 3:54 PM
> *To:* Owen DeLong; ARIN-PPML List
> *Subject:* Re: [arin-ppml] Clean up definition of LIR/ISP vs. end-user****
>
> ** **
>
> I suggest it is a worthwhile conversation to explore why they will be
> necessary?****
>
> ** **
>
> If the Internet is a network of networks, why does ARIN, an RIR, need to
> make the distinctions in how it allocates or assigns resources? Why
> shouldn't ARIN simply allocate resources to networks, regardless of how
> they operate simply based on what they need? ****
>
> ** **
>
> Are we over complicating things, not only for the Registry, but for those
> who don't do this for a living who are struggling to understand what all
> this means and why? ****
>
> ** **
>
> This goes back to the original PI/PA debate. There are End User networks
> that dwarf many ISP/LIR networks and vise versa. Why should we maintain
> multiple layers of requirements to justify IPv4 transfers and an
> exceedingly large pool of IPv6 space?****
>
> ** **
>
> -Dan****
>
> ** **
>
> *From: *Owen DeLong <owen at delong.com>
> *Date: *Tue, 30 Apr 2013 11:36:30 -0700
> *To: *Microsoft Office User <daniel_alexander at cable.comcast.com>
> *Cc: *ARIN-PPML List <arin-ppml at arin.net>
> *Subject: *Re: [arin-ppml] Clean up definition of LIR/ISP vs. end-user****
>
> ** **
>
> Dan, ****
>
> ** **
>
> The definitions apply to IPv6 as well.****
>
> ** **
>
> I believe they are still necessary.****
>
> ** **
>
> Owen****
>
> ** **
>
> On Apr 29, 2013, at 20:37 , "Alexander, Daniel" <
> Daniel_Alexander at Cable.Comcast.com> wrote:****
>
>
>
> ****
>
> Hello All,****
>
> ** **
>
> I would be curious to hear people's opinions of whether the distinctions
> are still necessary within ARIN policy. Once the IPv4 free pool is
> depleted, and the policies become focused on processing transfers, do we
> need to distinguish between End Users, non-End Users, and PA vs PI within
> ARIN policy?****
>
> ** **
>
> What are the criteria in which these distinctions matter, and will they
> still apply next year?****
>
> ** **
>
> Dan ****
>
> ARIN AC****
>
> ** **
>
> *From: *Scott Leibrand <scottleibrand at gmail.com>
> *Date: *Mon, 29 Apr 2013 13:41:56 -0700
> *To: *ARIN-PPML List <arin-ppml at arin.net>
> *Subject: *[arin-ppml] Clean up definition of LIR/ISP vs. end-user****
>
> ** **
>
> At ARIN 31 last week, Leslie's Policy Experience Report (slides at
> https://www.arin.net/participate/meetings/reports/ARIN_31/PDF/monday/nobile_policy.pdfor
> https://www.arin.net/participate/meetings/reports/ARIN_31/PPT/monday/nobile_policy.pptx)
> reported that, in ARIN staff's experience, the NRPM does not adequately
> define ISP/LIR vs. end-user.  For example, by literally applying the
> existing definitions as currently written, my employer would be neither an
> ISP nor and end-user, because while they do not *primarily* assign address
> space to users, neither do they *exclusively*  use it in their own
> networks.  So I think those definitions need a few tweaks. ****
>
> ** **
>
> I would propose that the primary difference between ISPs/LIRs vs.
> end-users, for purposes of the NRPM, is whether an organization reassigns
> address blocks to third parties.  If an organization maintains full control
> of all of the equipment on its network, and doesn't need to make any
> reassignments to other organizations, then it can qualify as an end-user.
>  In particular, an end user organization must be able to supply a full list
> of all the IP addresses in use on its network, and know what devices are
> using those addresses.****
>
> ** **
>
> An ISP/LIR, on the other hand, should be defined by whether they delegate
> that responsibility to another organization.  In that case, they need to
> reassign the network space via SWIP/rwhois, which makes them an LIR.****
>
> ** **
>
> I understand that there are other considerations, such as the expectation
> in the security community that addresses within an ISP allocation are
> generally controlled by third parties, whereas addresses in an end-user
> assignment are generally controlled by the end-user organization.  However,
> I don't believe it's practical to try to draw a distinction there: rather,
> organizations can decide for themselves whether they need to make
> reassignments (for that or several other reasons), and that decision can
> drive whether they are considered an ISP/LIR or end-user for purposes of
> ARIN policy.****
>
> ** **
>
> In light of the above, I would propose the following revised definitions:*
> ***
>
> ** **
>
> 2.4. Local Internet Registry (LIR)****
>
> The terms Internet Service Provider (ISP) and LIR are used interchangeably
> in this document.  A Local Internet Registry (LIR) is an IR that assigns
> address space to the users of the network services that it provides.
>  Therefore, LIRs / ISPs are organizations that reassign addresses to end
> users and/or reallocate addresses to other ISPs/LIRs.****
>
> ** **
>
> 2.6. End-user****
>
> An end-user is an organization receiving assignments of IP addresses
> exclusively for use in its operational networks, and does not register any
> reassignments of that space.****
>
> ** **
>
> Thoughts?  Should I submit this as a policy proposal?****
>
> ** **
>
> -Scott****
>
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