<div dir="ltr"><div><div><div>Steven Ryerse wrote:<br><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)">I believe that Arin and this community need to adopt a similar set of policies like have been proposed in Europe
<a href="https://www.ripe.net/ripe/policies/proposals/2013-03" target="_blank">https://www.ripe.net/ripe/policies/proposals/2013-03</a>
This would require a wholesale rewrite of a lot of policies which I am
not capable of doing - but removing the needs requirements in all
policies and just instituting right-sizing policies would be in line
with Arin’s mission and be best for all. I would support anyone willing
to take the time to submit a proposal to Arin similar to the one above
that has been proposed for RIPE.
<br><br></span></div><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)">Steven, please tell what right-sizing means to you and how that differs from assigning addresses according to an explicit need...<br>
</span></div><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)">Thanks,<br></span></div><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)">bd<br>
</span></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Apr 30, 2013 at 3:34 PM, Steven Ryerse <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:SRyerse@eclipse-networks.com" target="_blank">SRyerse@eclipse-networks.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div link="blue" vlink="purple" lang="EN-US">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">I agree with Daniel. I strongly believe it is Arin’s charter and mission to further the Internet and not impede access to it. Debating about what an organization
is doing on the Internet or what they are called is really a discussion on how to limit access to the Internet. I don’t believe that Arin should be trying to deny or limit an organization’s access to the Internet. I believe Arin should be trying to expand
the Internet for good of everyone as was done before Arin’s existence. I’m all for right sizing an organizations access with reasonable polices but I am not in favor of policies that have the sole purpose of denying or restricting access to the Internet.
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">I believe that Arin and this community need to adopt a similar set of policies like have been proposed in Europe
<a href="https://www.ripe.net/ripe/policies/proposals/2013-03" target="_blank">https://www.ripe.net/ripe/policies/proposals/2013-03</a> This would require a wholesale rewrite of a lot of policies which I am not capable of doing - but removing the needs requirements in all
policies and just instituting right-sizing policies would be in line with Arin’s mission and be best for all. I would support anyone willing to take the time to submit a proposal to Arin similar to the one above that has been proposed for RIPE.
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Steven L Ryerse<u></u><u></u></span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">President<u></u><u></u></span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">100 Ashford Center North, Suite 110, Atlanta, GA 30338<u></u><u></u></span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><a href="tel:770.656.1460" value="+17706561460" target="_blank">770.656.1460</a> - Cell<u></u><u></u></span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><a href="tel:770.399.9099" value="+17703999099" target="_blank">770.399.9099</a> - Office<u></u><u></u></span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><a href="tel:770.392-0076" value="+17703920076" target="_blank">770.392-0076</a> - Fax<u></u><u></u></span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"MS Mincho";color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><img src="cid:image001.jpg@01CE45BE.93CCFA30" alt="Description: Description: Description: Eclipse Networks Logo_small.png" border="0" height="37" width="56"></span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"MS Mincho";color:#1f497d">℠</span><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">
</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Eclipse Networks, Inc.</span><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent:.5in"><sup><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> Conquering Complex Networks</span></sup><sup><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">℠</span></sup><sup><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u><u></u></span></sup></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> <a href="mailto:arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net" target="_blank">arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net" target="_blank">arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Alexander, Daniel<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, April 30, 2013 3:54 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Owen DeLong; ARIN-PPML List<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [arin-ppml] Clean up definition of LIR/ISP vs. end-user<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">I suggest it is a worthwhile conversation to explore why they will be necessary?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">If the Internet is a network of networks, why does ARIN, an RIR, need to make the distinctions in how it allocates or assigns resources? Why shouldn't ARIN simply
allocate resources to networks, regardless of how they operate simply based on what they need? <u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">Are we over complicating things, not only for the Registry, but for those who don't do this for a living who are struggling to understand what all this means
and why? <u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">This goes back to the original PI/PA debate. There are End User networks that dwarf many ISP/LIR networks and vise versa. Why should we maintain multiple layers
of requirements to justify IPv4 transfers and an exceedingly large pool of IPv6 space?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">-Dan<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">From:
</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">Owen DeLong <<a href="mailto:owen@delong.com" target="_blank">owen@delong.com</a>><br>
<b>Date: </b>Tue, 30 Apr 2013 11:36:30 -0700<br>
<b>To: </b>Microsoft Office User <<a href="mailto:daniel_alexander@cable.comcast.com" target="_blank">daniel_alexander@cable.comcast.com</a>><br>
<b>Cc: </b>ARIN-PPML List <<a href="mailto:arin-ppml@arin.net" target="_blank">arin-ppml@arin.net</a>><br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [arin-ppml] Clean up definition of LIR/ISP vs. end-user<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">Dan,
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">The definitions apply to IPv6 as well.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">I believe they are still necessary.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">Owen<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">On Apr 29, 2013, at 20:37 , "Alexander, Daniel" <<a href="mailto:Daniel_Alexander@Cable.Comcast.com" target="_blank">Daniel_Alexander@Cable.Comcast.com</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><br>
<br>
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">Hello All,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">I would be curious to hear people's opinions of whether the distinctions are still necessary within ARIN policy. Once the IPv4 free pool is depleted, and the
policies become focused on processing transfers, do we need to distinguish between End Users, non-End Users, and PA vs PI within ARIN policy?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">What are the criteria in which these distinctions matter, and will they still apply next year?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">Dan <u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">ARIN AC<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">From:
</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">Scott Leibrand <<a href="mailto:scottleibrand@gmail.com" target="_blank">scottleibrand@gmail.com</a>><br>
<b>Date: </b>Mon, 29 Apr 2013 13:41:56 -0700<br>
<b>To: </b>ARIN-PPML List <<a href="mailto:arin-ppml@arin.net" target="_blank">arin-ppml@arin.net</a>><br>
<b>Subject: </b>[arin-ppml] Clean up definition of LIR/ISP vs. end-user<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">At ARIN 31 last week, Leslie's Policy Experience Report (slides at
<a href="https://www.arin.net/participate/meetings/reports/ARIN_31/PDF/monday/nobile_policy.pdf" target="_blank">
https://www.arin.net/participate/meetings/reports/ARIN_31/PDF/monday/nobile_policy.pdf</a> or
<a href="https://www.arin.net/participate/meetings/reports/ARIN_31/PPT/monday/nobile_policy.pptx" target="_blank">
https://www.arin.net/participate/meetings/reports/ARIN_31/PPT/monday/nobile_policy.pptx</a>) reported that, in ARIN staff's experience, the NRPM does not adequately define ISP/LIR vs. end-user. For example, by literally applying the existing definitions as
currently written, my employer would be neither an ISP nor and end-user, because while they do not *primarily* assign address space to users, neither do they *exclusively* use it in their own networks. So I think those definitions need a few tweaks.
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">I would propose that the primary difference between ISPs/LIRs vs. end-users, for purposes of the NRPM, is whether an organization reassigns address blocks to
third parties. If an organization maintains full control of all of the equipment on its network, and doesn't need to make any reassignments to other organizations, then it can qualify as an end-user. In particular, an end user organization must be able to
supply a full list of all the IP addresses in use on its network, and know what devices are using those addresses.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">An ISP/LIR, on the other hand, should be defined by whether they delegate that responsibility to another organization. In that case, they need to reassign the
network space via SWIP/rwhois, which makes them an LIR.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">I understand that there are other considerations, such as the expectation in the security community that addresses within an ISP allocation are generally controlled
by third parties, whereas addresses in an end-user assignment are generally controlled by the end-user organization. However, I don't believe it's practical to try to draw a distinction there: rather, organizations can decide for themselves whether they need
to make reassignments (for that or several other reasons), and that decision can drive whether they are considered an ISP/LIR or end-user for purposes of ARIN policy.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">In light of the above, I would propose the following revised definitions:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">2.4. Local Internet Registry (LIR)<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">The terms Internet Service Provider (ISP) and LIR are used interchangeably in this document. A Local Internet Registry (LIR) is an IR that assigns address space
to the users of the network services that it provides. Therefore, LIRs / ISPs are organizations that reassign addresses to end users and/or reallocate addresses to other ISPs/LIRs.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">2.6. End-user<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">An end-user is an organization receiving assignments of IP addresses exclusively for use in its operational networks, and does not register any reassignments
of that space.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">Thoughts? Should I submit this as a policy proposal?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">-Scott<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">_______________________________________________ PPML You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the ARIN Public Policy Mailing List (<a href="mailto:ARIN-PPML@arin.net" target="_blank">ARIN-PPML@arin.net</a>).
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