[arin-ppml] WhoWas Service Now in ARIN Online Announcement

Wed Mar 28 17:19:35 EDT 2012

The information in the Who was service is only what was available ***publically***.  It is the same as going to the 
library and getting the 2001-2012 phone books to see what number you had. 

The point of Who Was (in my mind) is to be able to see the history of an allocation. It is crucial moving
forward for 8.3 transfers to be able to see the "pedigree" of a netblock before purchase and this makes it
much easier to do. It allows for Peering Co-Coordinators to look at the history of a net block to help in preventing
hijacked space from being used. It allows me to see if a company coming to me for transit is using another name
of convenience and has changed there whois record 10 time in the past 18 months.

The service has no rating engine in it and makes no assumptions on how the space was used, just who used it.

If you have an example of how the  WhoWas service could be a problem can you please articulate a specific
example. I'd like to understand how having access to what was public information could be considered harmful.

Thanks, 

Kevin Blumberg

> -----Original Message-----
> From: arin-ppml-bounces at arin.net [mailto:arin-ppml-bounces at arin.net] On
> Behalf Of admin at directcolocation.com
> Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2012 4:27 PM
> To: owen at delong.com; arin-ppml at arin.net
> Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] WhoWas Service Now in ARIN Online
> Announcement
> 
> I do agree that it is not a bad thing but I do not see how it is a fair approach
> for a new service being applied to the whois at this date forward, if you were
> in the business of LAW then it would appear that it was a law that was being
> implemented and now would effect you on anything you have done in the
> past vrs now that you know making sure that you govern yourself
> accordingly.
> 
> I am not a lawyer but I think they call this ex post facto in the fact you cannot
> punished for something you did in the past.
> 
> But in this case you may have well done something in the past and now have
> to live with it for the rest of your IP life. I do not see how this could be a fair
> way to handle the implementation of the information available in this
> service, now that you know it exist and or you had some issues in the past,
> even if you have cleaned up your act.
> 
> The problem I see is in this case is that as we all know the anti spammers are
> not held accountable by any law or in some cases we do not know who they
> are and or where they are, so if the  have this information at there disposal.
> 
> Could it put ARIN a position of some kind of liability from a potential law suite
> for providing this information based on private business models and who one
> chooses to do business with based on the legal side of the quote can spam
> act as all spammers will calm they follow.
> 
> The problem could be perceived is that the network operator is being
> punished here by unregulated anti spammer groups and thus harming the
> business income of that operator by the act of ARIN providing access to this
> information to unregulated anti spammer groups, vrs the operators business
> income being harmed because of the actions of ARIN providing the
> unregulated groups access to the info.
> 
> 
> Again I am not a lawyer, but this should be considered, because anti
> spammers, like spammers hide themselves. With out the ability to regulate
> the anti spammers and hold them accountable for there actions of the use or
> mis use of this service, while there is some legislation in the can spam act that
> has holds the spammers to some accountability.
> 
> I would venture to say in our law suite happy world that some sharp lawyer
> might just challenge the use of this service harming an operators business
> income and go after the provider of information that caused the harm in this
> case ARIN.
> 
> I guess we should consider if any of the other RIR's are doing the same
> service because that would negate this concern.
> 
> I am sure they would try to site that as a difference in single out of ARIN if it
> came down to that extreme situation.
> 
> 
> Also do you know if the service will be used on IPV6 whois so as this goes
> forward we will be able to have that information there also or is just on the
> IPV4 whois
> 
> Donald Mahoney
> Network Engineer
> Direct Colocation
> 
> On 3/28/12 3:42 PM, "Owen DeLong" <owen at delong.com> wrote:
> 
> It goes back in time and should include all historical whois information
> available.
> 
> The only drawback is it prevents someone from denying their history.
> Personally, I don't see that as a bad thing.
> 
> Owen
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad
> 
> On Mar 28, 2012, at 1:04 PM, admin at directcolocation.com wrote:
> 
> I guess it comes down to the fact of how they the ARIN intends to create the
> starting point on this service since it is a new service, does it go back in the
> historical past from the inception of the blocks that are assigned to such or
> does it go forward from this point of the service being created.
> The key for his concern would be if they had problems in the past with the
> anti spammers and continued having the same kind of problem customers,
> then I could see the use of this service potential effecting the long term
> reputation, since the problem would be that some of the anti spammer
> groups that might use the service could refuse to work with this kind of
> operator so they could at least clean up there act.
> Does anyone know if ARIN intends to start the service from this point
> forward and or go back into current historical data from the issuance of the
> blocks in the whois.
> If they start it from this point on then I would look at it as an opportunity to
> get my house in order if you know that this is the kind of customers you have
> been targeting.
> Donald Mahoney
> Network Engineer
> Direct Colocation
> On 3/28/12 2:31 PM, "Kevin Kargel" <kkargel at polartel.com> wrote:
> It appears that after years of being harangued by 'anti-spam' cultists for
> access to historic WHOIS data in order to burnish their credentials as Official
> Spam Detectives and support their efforts to criminalize marketing and drag
> email back to the DARPA era, ARIN has finally thrown in the towel. I am
> frankly disappointed.
> Has this topic every been discussed? This needs not to be part of the
> Disciples of ARIN. I am optimistic this can be reversed pending discussion.
> Nicky Smith
> CAROLINANET.COM
> 336.346.6000 x105
> I, for one, do not understand what you perceive the evil of a WhoWas
> service to be? Aside from the worst case of wasting admin time and budget I
> do not see a real down side to it's existence. Please elucidate.
> I do remember the topic being discussed on more than one occasion.
> Kevin
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