[arin-ppml] 2008-6: Emergency Transfer Policy for IPv4 Addresses

Ted Mittelstaedt tedm at ipinc.net
Mon Sep 29 17:54:08 EDT 2008

> -----Original Message-----
> From: arin-ppml-bounces at arin.net 
> [mailto:arin-ppml-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of David Williamson
> Sent: Monday, September 29, 2008 2:23 PM
> To: Kevin Kargel
> Cc: arin-ppml at arin.net
> Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] 2008-6: Emergency Transfer Policy 
> for IPv4 Addresses
> On Mon, Sep 29, 2008 at 04:14:34PM -0500, Kevin Kargel wrote:
> > YES!  People really are so worried about introducing money to the 
> > transaction.
> > 
> > I do not want to end up going to eBay for address space.
> I'm not either, but as we run out of space, the choices seem, 
> to me, to be either eBay, or you just can't get it.  Given 
> "pay" or "no", I choose the former...especially if the 
> requests are getting properly examined by a third-party with 
> an interest in efficientcy and validity of the transfer, and 
> not the money involved, i.e., ARIN.
> I'm also pretty certain the transfers for money will take 
> place whether we all like it or not.  I'd rather have it 
> legitimized by ARIN, rather than a complete black market.
> I really don't like it, but I don't see a practical 
> alternative. Depending on the good will of those who have 
> space and don't need it has never worked to well, in my opinion.

David and Bill Darte,

  I agree with Kevin and Michael, I am against paying for numbering
However I will make the observation that I think David is correct that this
happen even if we don't want it to, and it will be black market.  HOWEVER
the point that seems to be missed is that if it does go black market, that
it WON'T HAPPEN until IPv4 runout actually occurs.

  Now is not the time to implement legalized transfers based on money
because if we do allow them or put language into the NPRM at this time
to permit them in the future, we are instantly creating business
for investment in holding companies that do nothing other than lie, cheat
steal as much IPv4 as they can get BEFORE runout.  Meaning you will see a
of ficticious requests for IPv4 numbering go into the RIR's pre-runout,
runout to happen that much faster.

  I would prefer to wait until AFTER IPv4 runout, when there is actual
of black-market IPv4 transfers, THEN implement legalization.  Discuss it all

  This policy is basically ASSUMING that unauthorized transfers are going to
happen and we need to regulate them now.  While we can suspect that they
will happen, and have a very STRONG guess that they will happen, suspicions
and strong guesses are NOT GROUNDS for policy.  With the upcoming POC
proposals, we have PROOF that we have stale data in there due to the
number of Bitnet mail addresses discovered, thus policy is called for.  What
PROOF is there that money for IPv4 transfers at this time will help

  Has anyone ever bothered SURVEYING the existing
IPv4 holders to find out what percentage would even CONSIDER renumbering
should an IPv4 market appear?  And at what price point?

  The ONLY USE that liberalized transfer RIGHT NOW are for people who
are PLANNING on hoarding and going into business as IPv4 brokers.  They
are of no use to anyone else when ARIN still has IPv4 to hand out.

  We have enough work with making policy for things that we KNOW ARE
RIGHT NOW.  For example, in the past some have asserted in this forum that
some of Dean Anderson's IP addresses are hijacked.  Has anything
been done to even investigate this?  And if it was investigated and
to be true, what mechanism exists to get them back?  Nothing!  THERE is
the policy blanks are that need filling in.

  We also have assertions that a number of IPv4 legacy blocks are
abandonded.  And
we have 2 proposals (mine one) that are tentative steps to discovering which
one of those blocks ARE abandonded.  We will need more policy and more
to work out a mechanism for ARIN to define abandonded legacy blocks and take
back.  Yet ANOTHER policy blank.

  I think it would be more fruitful to worry about making policy for
that is a problem right now, than for a problem we think we might possibly
a few years down the road.  It might be that in the process of cleaning up
messes like abandonded IPv4 that we will find that we have a lot more IPv4
anyone thought.


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