[ppml] ARIN member in good standing?

[Howard, W. Lee]

I'm going to defend the topicality of this subject insofar as it
discusses allocation practice.  Interconnect charges are not 
directly on topic, but may be an important part of why a model will
or will not work. 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Peter Sherbin [mailto:pesherb at yahoo.com] 
> Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 9:48 AM
> To: Howard, W. Lee; ppml at arin.net
> Subject: RE: [ppml] ARIN member in good standing?
> 
> > You would bill the packet originator, not the destination?
> 
> Yes, the originator of the packet pays to a transport provider
> 
> >you would bill the peer network who sent the packet to you
> 
> Peers cut the settlement based on volumes of packets they 
> exchange. A bit is a
> single common cost driver on the internet. Any HW or network 
> design starts with
> calculating bit volumes. Same should be extended to the 
> internet financials.

Can you describe the data capture mechanism?  I mentioned the
billing system that would be required.  Even if you discard
payload and only keep source and destination addresses and packet
size, you're talking about increasing network load by a 
significant amount (30%?).  Billing data for an OC3 could be
16TB per month.  Multiply hundreds of circuits times a five-year 
record-retention policy, and I get a 97PB database. 

> > How is your model better than what we have now?
> 
> As a provider I support the infrastracture carrying unpaid 
> volumes while I am
> challenged with capturing that revenue. We have what we have. 
> I guess this is a
> constant search for doing things the proper way.

I don't understand "unpaid volumes."  You bill your customers.

You keep saying "proper," as if to say that there is an established
right way to do things.


> > I don't understand whether you mean every organization should get a 
> > provider-independent address block and a telecommunications 
> license, or
> > if you mean that only telcos should get PI address space, 
> and everybody
> > else must accept assignments from telcos.
> 
> Every taxpayer (entity or individual) within RIR area is 
> entitled to a certain
> amount of IP (IPv6) address space. I assume a 
> telecommunication license is available
> to anyone who wants it and meets certain criteria. Assignment 
> of the address space
> goes directly from RIR to a taxpayer.

I am not familiar with telecommunications licensing, but I do not
have the impression that licenses are available to anyone.  My
impression is that the "certain criteria" are high.  Does each
coffee shop and private interconnect have to get a license?

So does this mean a new kind of governmental licensing agency, 
which works closely with the government tax collection agency, 
and the two agencies direct ARIN?

I'm unclear on the taxpayer-node relationship.  Each taxpaying
individual with a tax ID gets an allocation?  What size?
Each taxpaying organization with a tax ID get an allocation?
What size?  
Not to be pedantic, but are tax-exempt organizations eligible?
 
> > I'm not sure where you put large enterprise networks.  Distributed
> > offices, multi-homed networks, multi-national presences...
> 
> The entity always carries the cost of the transport network 
> wether its own or leased from whichever provider.

I was talking about IP address allocation.  Say my company has 
offices in 14 states and two provinces, with leased lines between 
them, and three Internet connections.  Do I get three assignments 
from my carriers, or 14?  Or since I have leased lines, do I get a 
telecom license?

> > So only telcos would get IP addresses from ARIN? 
> 
> Not only telcos but all taxpayers (individuals and entities)
> 
> > In the U.S., would the regional licenser be the state PUC 
> or the FCC?
> 
> Licensers at all levels in all countries within ARIN region 
> would need to provide to
> ARIN subscriber counts from their licensees.

This is all new, so forgive me while I try to put this together.

I pay taxes, so I'm entitled to a direct allocation from ARIN.
But I don't know how much until I go to my ISP and buy service.
They tell their licensing agency how many subscribers they have,
the licensing agency tells ARIN how many address to provide and
how much to allocate.  When do I get mine?  Do I pay ARIN or
the ISP?  How much do I pay?  Can I use those addresses with any
carrier?  

My wife pays taxes too.  Does she get a separate allocation?
She's a programmer for an office-less company.  Her company buys 
an Internet connection to our house.  Does her work PC get an IP 
address based on her company's tax ID number, or hers?

 
> > In your model, that agency would annually count the number 
> of Internet users
> (people, households, businesses, or hosts?) the telco has, 
> multiply by some fee, and
> tell ARIN how much to invoice. 
> 
> That is correct. Providers who routinely report on their 
> Internet subscribers
> (connection users) will provide those numbers to ARIN. The 
> exact fee amount in a
> particular country is up to the local top level licensee. 

What's a top level licensee?

> In a case where two
> individuals have invested in a wire connecting their PCs 
> accross the street they
> will not be a subject to ARIN fee as long as their private 
> network has no access to
> the Internet (that assumes that IP addresses per se are not a 
> sellable commodity, they are a common resourse).

What if one of them sets up community wireless?  

Keep going, I want to understand where this road leads.

Lee

> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Peter
> 
> 
> --- "Howard, W. Lee" <Lee.Howard at stanleyassociates.com> wrote:
> 
> >  
> >  Peter Sherbin >
> > >
> > > The Internet is an electronic version of a global postal 
> > > service. As such it should
> > > move to a proper financial model where each delivery is paid 
> > > for according to its volume and destination.
> > 
> > That would be an exciting billing system!  Every packet 
> would have to be
> > logged with source address, destination address, and size.  Another
> > table
> > to link IP address to billing address.  You would bill the packet 
> > originator, not the destination?  If the originator is not 
> a customer, I
> > 
> > assume you would bill the peer network who sent the packet 
> to you.  This
> > implies some significant changes to many network peering 
> relationships, 
> > and you pretty quickly answer the question of which way 
> payment goes.
> > 
> > You imply that the current model is improper, but I only 
> see analogy to
> > support that implication.  How is your model better than 
> what we have
> > now?
> > 
> > > Here is a proposed model:
> > > PI addresses
> > 
> > I don't understand whether you mean every organization should get a 
> > provider-independent address block and a telecommunications 
> license, or
> > if you mean that only telcos should get PI address space, 
> and everybody
> > else must accept assignments from telcos.
> > 
> > > RIR invoices every entity with telecommunications licence in 
> > > the region a per sibscriber fee to cover admin expenses
> > > Regional issuer of telecom licenses determines the fee amount 
> > > as well as makes such
> > > fee a condition of the license (don't mean to regulate the 
> > > Internet but please share your comments)
> > 
> > I'm not sure where you put large enterprise networks.  Distributed
> > offices,
> > multi-homed networks, multi-national presences.  I don't know which
> > telco
> > would aggregate them.  Similar questions for cable 
> companies, CLECs, 
> > universities, and governments.
> > 
> > So only telcos would get IP addresses from ARIN?  In the 
> U.S., would the
> > 
> > regional licenser be the state PUC or the FCC?  In your model, that
> > agency 
> > would annually count the number of Internet users (people, 
> households, 
> > businesses, or hosts?) the telco has, multiply by some fee, and tell
> > ARIN 
> > how much to invoice.  If ARIN reported the telco for 
> non-payment, the 
> > agency would revoke their license return the addresses to ARIN.
> > 
> > Can you flesh this out a little further?
> > 
> > Lee
> > 
> > 
> > > 
> > > Thanks,
> > > 
> > > Peter Sherbin
> > 
> 
> 
> 
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