[arin-discuss] Encouraging IPv6 Transition (From PPML)

Jim Kirby jkirby at datawareservices.com
Tue May 15 08:42:27 EDT 2012 

I would argue that the inverse is true:  Hosting providers will make the change as soon as they have hosting clients who in turn have clients who cannot reach sites on an IPv4 only network.  This is the argument that got me the resources to deploy dual stack at our small hosting company for last year's World IPv6 day.  And we left it up permanently:

www.datawareservices.com. 3600	IN	AAAA	2604:7a00:2:200::110

As Owen pointed out, dual stack is the only real option for hosting providers.  And it works a treat.
-- 
Jim Kirby
Director of Engineering
Dataware Services
main: 605.336.0820 x368  
fax:  605.336.0228

On May 14, 2012, at 7:33 PM, Justin Oeder wrote:

> Agreed!
> 
> Content/hosting providers will not make the change until they can guarantee all of their clients will still be able to access their content without issue.  ISPs will have to make the transition first using tunnels.  Then, and only then, will you see content/hosting providers move to IPv6 only.
> 
> Regards,
> Justin Oeder
> P. 513-299-7108 ext 11
> C. 513-432-5152
> E. Justin.Oeder at BeyondHosting.net
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: john at quonix.net
> To: arin-discuss at arin.net
> Sent: Monday, May 14, 2012 8:17:08 PM
> Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Encouraging IPv6 Transition (From PPML)
> 
> I've been following this thread today, many good points, and some of these 
> points answer the fundamental issue... Why is v6 transition going so 
> slowly? 
> 
> Its a chicken and egg scenario. The internet is a combination of people 
> who use content (i.e. users behind an ISP), and people who host up content 
> (i.e. servers in a datacenter). 
> 
> Right now there is very little global v6 use. People in datacenters aren't 
> jumping into v6 because very few people are using content over v6. 
> Likewise, even if the end user cared, very little content exists on v6 for 
> end users to request anyway. 
> 
> One of these groups needs to "jump" so to speak. If the top 4 ISPs in the 
> US moved over to v6 - content providers in datacenters would start to care 
> about using v6. But thats not going to happen anytime soon. 
> 
> Here is my idea.... Get more end users requesting data over v6 through v4 
> tunnels that are built into their operating system and browser - without 
> them knowing it! This will cause a jump start. If the newer Mac and 
> Windows OS's had built-in v4-to-v6 tunneling, and the browsers forced 
> requests to AAAA records, then the worlds content providers would see 
> larger and larger amounts of traffic coming in over v6 and this would 
> cause people to start to change. 
> 
> Just my 2 cents....
> 
> -John Von Essen
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------
>> From : Jesse D. Geddis <jesse at la-broadband.com>
> To : bpasdar at batblue.com <bpasdar at batblue.com>, John Brown 
> <john at citylinkfiber.com> 
> Subject : Re: [arin-discuss] Encouraging IPv6 Transition (From PPML)
> Date : Mon, 14 May 2012 23:44:07 +0000
>> Lets explore that question. First, my point of reference. I have over 
> 20,000 residential consumers (end users) directly connected on my network. 
> I am a service provider and the owner. I also have an equal number of 
> enterprise and service provider customers but they aren't in scope of this 
> conversation. I rolled out IPv6 to all of my residential users and NAT 
> their v4. I didn't get any complaints about things not working. Tellingly, 
> I also didn't get a single user out of that 20,000 end users that even 
> noticed they had a v6 address. AT&T as well as any other carrier can do 
> this today. The technology to do this has existed for over a decade. 
>> 
>> I am Joe Blow next door to you. My internet works, all my needs are met, 
> we'll say it's FiOS so it's "fast". What would compel me to ask verizon 
> why they aren't supporting IPv6? Will my internet be faster? Will my 
> internet be more reliable? Will I gain any functionality by utilizing v6? 
> The answer to all these questions is invariably "no". Trumpeting v6 to end 
> users is both inefficient and un-compelling. 
>> 
>> Again, using Westfield as an example. What would compel me to go to my 
> carrier and demand v6 address space? It's more work for me, it provides no 
> additional functionality in the next budgetary cycle. Why bother? 
>> 
>> ARIN has a tool (the only tool ARIN has in fact) of setting requirements 
> before assigning additional address space. Please correct me if I'm wrong 
> but my impression is that this tool is either not being wielded or it is 
> not being wielded effectively. Otherwise I would be getting assigned a v6 
> address by AT&T today. 
>> 
>> By directly targeting enterprise and end users we would be going about 
> it backwards. I as a service provider chose to put all my residential 
> users on v6 space. The size of perceived nimbleness of AT&T or Verizon is 
> irrelevant. Remember the adage Necessity breeds ingenuity? If they can't 
> get more address space unless they start making concrete efforts to roll 
> out v6 to their end users they will not change their behaviour. 
>> 
>> --
>> Jesse D. Geddis
>> LA Broadband LLC
>> 
>> 
>> From: Babak Pasdar <bpasdar at batblue.com<mailto:bpasdar at batblue.com>>
>> Organization: Bat Blue Networks
>> Reply-To: "bpasdar at batblue.com<mailto:bpasdar at batblue.com>" 
> <bpasdar at batblue.com<mailto:bpasdar at batblue.com>> 
>> Date: Monday, May 14, 2012 4:24 PM
>> To: Jesse Geddis 
> <jesse at la-broadband.com<mailto:jesse at la-broadband.com>>, John Brown 
> <john at citylinkfiber.com<mailto:john at citylinkfiber.com>> 
>> Cc: "arin-discuss at arin.net<mailto:arin-discuss at arin.net>" 
> <arin-discuss at arin.net<mailto:arin-discuss at arin.net>> 
>> Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Encouraging IPv6 Transition (From PPML)
>> 
>> Jesse,
>> 
>> Could it be that your view is based on your own experiences with 
> carriers and customers and that may not reflect the industry on average.  
> The people who don't don't understand the concept of data centers or how 
> the Internet works are not the folks that I (and most likely the rest of 
> the respondents in this thread) are targeting. 
>> 
>> Also, I do not see AT&T as an organization that is competitively agile 
> to be a leader in this space.  Others have and most likely will continue 
> to lead on this.  When they do, AT&T will follow. 
>> 
>> Best Regards,
>> 
>> Babak
>> 
>> --
>> Babak Pasdar | President & CEO | Certified Ethical Hacker | Bat Blue 
> Networks 
>> (p) 212.461.3322 x3005 | (w) BatBlue.com<http://batblue.com/> | (t) 
> @bpasdar<https://twitter.com/bpasdar> : 
> @batblue<https://twitter.com/batblue> 
>> 
>> Learn About Cloud Security: Cloud Security 
> Video<http://www.batblue.com/page.php?96> | Cloud Network 
> Video<http://www.batblue.com/page.php?97> 
>> 
>> Bat Blue is The Official Provider for ESPN X 
> Games<http://www.batblue.com/page.php?72> 
>> ________________________________
>> From: Jesse D. Geddis [mailto:jesse at la-broadband.com]
>> To: John Brown [mailto:john at citylinkfiber.com]
>> Cc: arin-discuss at arin.net<mailto:arin-discuss at arin.net> 
> [mailto:arin-discuss at arin.net] 
>> Sent: Mon, 14 May 2012 19:16:40 -0400
>> Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Encouraging IPv6 Transition (From PPML)
>> 
>> I don't mean to be contrary here but these concepts are far too abstract 
> for 99.9% of end users whom will have no point of reference. Most people I 
> talk to didn't even know of the existence of data centres let alone have 
> any clue what v4 vs v6 is. And why should they? There would be no direct 
> benefit to the end user being on v6 over v4 or both. To them their 
> "Internet" either works or it doesn't. Requiring implementation by the 
> major carriers who are dragging their feet by saying no more IPs until 
> they show they are on board is much more compelling. 
>> 
>> Jesse Geddis
>> LA Broadband LLC
>> ASN 16602
>> 
>> On May 14, 2012, at 3:31 PM, "John Brown" 
> <john at citylinkfiber.com<mailto:john at citylinkfiber.com>> wrote: 
>> 
>>> Hi folks,
>>> 
>>> IPv6 uptake is about end-users having a reason to care.
>>> When they care, then the $ervice providers care.
>>> 
>>> I suspect that when the 3.141 /8's are gone from ARIN, then people 
> will 
>>> really care and FAST.
>>> 
>>> I still have service providers that tell me they don't have IPv6 
> available 
>>> today. National transit providers aren't fully supporting it yet.
>>> 
>>> We have to find something(s) that will get the end user to give a darn 
> and 
>>> WANT IT.
>>> 
>>> On 5/14/12 4:23 PM, "Chris Grundemann" 
> <cgrundemann at gmail.com<mailto:cgrundemann at gmail.com>> wrote: 
>>> 
>>>> On Mon, May 14, 2012 at 4:07 PM, Owen DeLong 
> <owen at delong.com<mailto:owen at delong.com>> wrote: 
>>>>> I would oppose this unless you're also willing to waive IPv6 
> assignment 
>>>>> fees that do not accompany an IPv4 resource application. I see no
>>>>> benefit to the community from requiring people to consume extra IPv4
>>>>> just to get a free IPv6 assignment. (Well, actually, I do see a 
> small 
>>>>> benefit in exhausting IPv4 and getting on with transition faster, 
> but, I 
>>>>> don't think it's necessarily good stewardship).
>>>> 
>>>> You're right Owen, I was over-simplifying. My fear is that a total 
> fee 
>>>> waiver may hurt ARIN financially. Even free initial-assignments may
>>>> cause harm.
>>>> 
>>>> I don't have ARINs budget at my fingertips, perhaps a staffer can let
>>>> us know how much it might cost to make initial IPv6 assignments (to
>>>> end-users) free for a year and then half price for a year.
>>>> 
>>>> That would do two things: First, it lowers a potential barrier, pure
>>>> cost of assignment. Second, it puts a touch of urgency on initial 
> IPv6 
>>>> requests: "Hey boss, we have to at least get our assignment this year
>>>> if we don't want to be forced to pay later..."
>>>> 
>>>> ~Chris
>>>> 
>>>>> Owen
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Sent from my iPad
>>>>> 
>>>>> On May 14, 2012, at 3:03 PM, Scott Leibrand 
> <scottleibrand at gmail.com<mailto:scottleibrand at gmail.com>> 
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> IMO 1A and 2A might usefully go together as a carrot + stick 
> approach. 
>>>>>> A little extra attestation work in exchange for a "get v6 free with
>>>>>> your v4" offer should encourage v6 adoption without increasing the
>>>>>> overall time+cost burden on the orgs applying for space.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Scott
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On May 14, 2012, at 10:53 AM, Chris Grundemann 
> <cgrundemann at gmail.com<mailto:cgrundemann at gmail.com>> 
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Four ideas to promote IPv6 deployment, for your consideration and
>>>>>>> discussion:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 1) Make it as easy as possible for an org who actually wants IPv6 
> to 
>>>>>>> get it. This is mostly in place today (allocation fee waivers, one
>>>>>>> maint. fee per Org ID, ease of qualification, etc.) but there is 
> still 
>>>>>>> some possible room for improvement:
>>>>>>> 1A) Waive IPv6 assignment fees for end-users who request both IPv4
>>>>>>> and IPv6 simultaneously.
>>>>>>> 1B) Move the </40 small/x-small threshold to <=/48.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 2) Provide additional motivation for orgs to request and deploy 
> IPv6. 
>>>>>>> There are several top of mind methods to accomplish this:
>>>>>>> 2A) Require the officer attestation to acknowledge the current
>>>>>>> state of affairs regarding IPv4 exhaustion and IPv6 requirements.
>>>>>>> 2B) Continue or even ramp up (especially targeting end users) 
> ARINs 
>>>>>>> outreach efforts (which have been substantial in previous years 
> but 
>>>>>>> are being wound down post IANA-exhaustion).
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>> ~Chris
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> @ChrisGrundemann
>>>>>>> http://chrisgrundemann.com
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> ARIN-Discuss
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>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> --
>>>> @ChrisGrundemann
>>>> http://chrisgrundemann.com
>>>> _______________________________________________
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