[arin-discuss] Encouraging IPv6 Transition (From PPML)
Lee Howard
spiffnolee at yahoo.com
Mon May 14 22:59:38 EDT 2012
>________________________________
> From: "john at quonix.net" <john at quonix.net>
>To: arin-discuss at arin.net
>Sent: Monday, May 14, 2012 4:17 PM
>Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Encouraging IPv6 Transition (From PPML)
>
>I've been following this thread today, many good points, and some of these
>points answer the fundamental issue... Why is v6 transition going so
>slowly?
>
>Its a chicken and egg scenario. The internet is a combination of people
>who use content (i.e. users behind an ISP), and people who host up content
>(i.e. servers in a datacenter).
>
>Right now there is very little global v6 use. People in datacenters aren't
>jumping into v6 because very few people are using content over v6.
>Likewise, even if the end user cared, very little content exists on v6 for
>end users to request anyway
>
>
Content wanted to break the chicken and egg dilemma last year and ran
World IPv6 Day. Worked great, and big content is turning it on forever on
June 6:
http://www.worldipv6launch.org/participants/?q=1
Google, Facebook, YouTube, Yahoo, Bing, Netflix, AOL. And a couple
thousand others.
By the way, you can sign up your own website and your own ISP. It's
coordinated by ISOC.
>One of these groups needs to "jump" so to speak. If the top 4 ISPs in the
>US moved over to v6 - content providers in datacenters would start to care
>about using v6. But thats not going to happen anytime soon.
>Next month.
>Here is my idea.... Get more end users requesting data over v6 through v4
>tunnels that are built into their operating system and browser - without
>them knowing it! This will cause a jump start. If the newer Mac and
>Windows OS's had built-in v4-to-v6 tunneling, and the browsers forced
>requests to AAAA records, then the worlds content providers would see
>larger and larger amounts of traffic coming in over v6 and this would
>cause people to start to change.
>
>
6to4 had a lot of problems. See ARIN's wiki, http://getipv6.info/index.php/Customer_problems_that_could_occur
for example.
Dual stack is the way to go, and it's on by default in Vista, Win7, Mac OS X, and *nix.
More home gateways need it, but that's why there's a CPE category in World IPv6 Launch.
Lee
>Just my 2 cents....
>
>-John Von Essen
>
>----------------------------------------------------
>>From : Jesse D. Geddis <jesse at la-broadband.com>
>To : bpasdar at batblue.com <bpasdar at batblue.com>, John Brown
><john at citylinkfiber.com>
>Subject : Re: [arin-discuss] Encouraging IPv6 Transition (From PPML)
>Date : Mon, 14 May 2012 23:44:07 +0000
>> Lets explore that question. First, my point of reference. I have over
>20,000 residential consumers (end users) directly connected on my network.
>I am a service provider and the owner. I also have an equal number of
>enterprise and service provider customers but they aren't in scope of this
>conversation. I rolled out IPv6 to all of my residential users and NAT
>their v4. I didn't get any complaints about things not working. Tellingly,
>I also didn't get a single user out of that 20,000 end users that even
>noticed they had a v6 address. AT&T as well as any other carrier can do
>this today. The technology to do this has existed for over a decade.
>>
>> I am Joe Blow next door to you. My internet works, all my needs are met,
>we'll say it's FiOS so it's "fast". What would compel me to ask verizon
>why they aren't supporting IPv6? Will my internet be faster? Will my
>internet be more reliable? Will I gain any functionality by utilizing v6?
>The answer to all these questions is invariably "no". Trumpeting v6 to end
>users is both inefficient and un-compelling.
>>
>> Again, using Westfield as an example. What would compel me to go to my
>carrier and demand v6 address space? It's more work for me, it provides no
>additional functionality in the next budgetary cycle. Why bother?
>>
>> ARIN has a tool (the only tool ARIN has in fact) of setting requirements
>before assigning additional address space. Please correct me if I'm wrong
>but my impression is that this tool is either not being wielded or it is
>not being wielded effectively. Otherwise I would be getting assigned a v6
>address by AT&T today.
>>
>> By directly targeting enterprise and end users we would be going about
>it backwards. I as a service provider chose to put all my residential
>users on v6 space. The size of perceived nimbleness of AT&T or Verizon is
>irrelevant. Remember the adage Necessity breeds ingenuity? If they can't
>get more address space unless they start making concrete efforts to roll
>out v6 to their end users they will not change their behaviour.
>>
>> --
>> Jesse D. Geddis
>> LA Broadband LLC
>>
>>
>> From: Babak Pasdar <bpasdar at batblue.com<mailto:bpasdar at batblue.com>>
>> Organization: Bat Blue Networks
>> Reply-To: "bpasdar at batblue.com<mailto:bpasdar at batblue.com>"
><bpasdar at batblue.com<mailto:bpasdar at batblue.com>>
>> Date: Monday, May 14, 2012 4:24 PM
>> To: Jesse Geddis
><jesse at la-broadband.com<mailto:jesse at la-broadband.com>>, John Brown
><john at citylinkfiber.com<mailto:john at citylinkfiber.com>>
>> Cc: "arin-discuss at arin.net<mailto:arin-discuss at arin.net>"
><arin-discuss at arin.net<mailto:arin-discuss at arin.net>>
>> Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Encouraging IPv6 Transition (From PPML)
>>
>> Jesse,
>>
>> Could it be that your view is based on your own experiences with
>carriers and customers and that may not reflect the industry on average.
>The people who don't don't understand the concept of data centers or how
>the Internet works are not the folks that I (and most likely the rest of
>the respondents in this thread) are targeting.
>>
>> Also, I do not see AT&T as an organization that is competitively agile
>to be a leader in this space. Others have and most likely will continue
>to lead on this. When they do, AT&T will follow.
>>
>> Best Regards,
>>
>> Babak
>>
>> --
>> Babak Pasdar | President & CEO | Certified Ethical Hacker | Bat Blue
>Networks
>> (p) 212.461.3322 x3005 | (w) BatBlue.com<http://batblue.com/> | (t)
>@bpasdar<https://twitter.com/bpasdar> :
>@batblue<https://twitter.com/batblue>
>>
>> Learn About Cloud Security: Cloud Security
>Video<http://www.batblue.com/page.php?96> | Cloud Network
>Video<http://www.batblue.com/page.php?97>
>>
>> Bat Blue is The Official Provider for ESPN X
>Games<http://www.batblue.com/page.php?72>
>> ________________________________
>> From: Jesse D. Geddis [mailto:jesse at la-broadband.com]
>> To: John Brown [mailto:john at citylinkfiber.com]
>> Cc: arin-discuss at arin.net<mailto:arin-discuss at arin.net>
>[mailto:arin-discuss at arin.net]
>> Sent: Mon, 14 May 2012 19:16:40 -0400
>> Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Encouraging IPv6 Transition (From PPML)
>>
>> I don't mean to be contrary here but these concepts are far too abstract
>for 99.9% of end users whom will have no point of reference. Most people I
>talk to didn't even know of the existence of data centres let alone have
>any clue what v4 vs v6 is. And why should they? There would be no direct
>benefit to the end user being on v6 over v4 or both. To them their
>"Internet" either works or it doesn't. Requiring implementation by the
>major carriers who are dragging their feet by saying no more IPs until
>they show they are on board is much more compelling.
>>
>> Jesse Geddis
>> LA Broadband LLC
>> ASN 16602
>>
>> On May 14, 2012, at 3:31 PM, "John Brown"
><john at citylinkfiber.com<mailto:john at citylinkfiber.com>> wrote:
>>
>> > Hi folks,
>> >
>> > IPv6 uptake is about end-users having a reason to care.
>> > When they care, then the $ervice providers care.
>> >
>> > I suspect that when the 3.141 /8's are gone from ARIN, then people
>will
>> > really care and FAST.
>> >
>> > I still have service providers that tell me they don't have IPv6
>available
>> > today. National transit providers aren't fully supporting it yet.
>> >
>> > We have to find something(s) that will get the end user to give a darn
>and
>> > WANT IT.
>> >
>> > On 5/14/12 4:23 PM, "Chris Grundemann"
><cgrundemann at gmail.com<mailto:cgrundemann at gmail.com>> wrote:
>> >
>> >> On Mon, May 14, 2012 at 4:07 PM, Owen DeLong
><owen at delong.com<mailto:owen at delong.com>> wrote:
>> >>> I would oppose this unless you're also willing to waive IPv6
>assignment
>> >>> fees that do not accompany an IPv4 resource application. I see no
>> >>> benefit to the community from requiring people to consume extra IPv4
>> >>> just to get a free IPv6 assignment. (Well, actually, I do see a
>small
>> >>> benefit in exhausting IPv4 and getting on with transition faster,
>but, I
>> >>> don't think it's necessarily good stewardship).
>> >>
>> >> You're right Owen, I was over-simplifying. My fear is that a total
>fee
>> >> waiver may hurt ARIN financially. Even free initial-assignments may
>> >> cause harm.
>> >>
>> >> I don't have ARINs budget at my fingertips, perhaps a staffer can let
>> >> us know how much it might cost to make initial IPv6 assignments (to
>> >> end-users) free for a year and then half price for a year.
>> >>
>> >> That would do two things: First, it lowers a potential barrier, pure
>> >> cost of assignment. Second, it puts a touch of urgency on initial
>IPv6
>> >> requests: "Hey boss, we have to at least get our assignment this year
>> >> if we don't want to be forced to pay later..."
>> >>
>> >> ~Chris
>> >>
>> >>> Owen
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Sent from my iPad
>> >>>
>> >>> On May 14, 2012, at 3:03 PM, Scott Leibrand
><scottleibrand at gmail.com<mailto:scottleibrand at gmail.com>>
>> >>> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>> IMO 1A and 2A might usefully go together as a carrot + stick
>approach.
>> >>>> A little extra attestation work in exchange for a "get v6 free with
>> >>>> your v4" offer should encourage v6 adoption without increasing the
>> >>>> overall time+cost burden on the orgs applying for space.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Scott
>> >>>>
>> >>>> On May 14, 2012, at 10:53 AM, Chris Grundemann
><cgrundemann at gmail.com<mailto:cgrundemann at gmail.com>>
>> >>>> wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>>> Four ideas to promote IPv6 deployment, for your consideration and
>> >>>>> discussion:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> 1) Make it as easy as possible for an org who actually wants IPv6
>to
>> >>>>> get it. This is mostly in place today (allocation fee waivers, one
>> >>>>> maint. fee per Org ID, ease of qualification, etc.) but there is
>still
>> >>>>> some possible room for improvement:
>> >>>>> 1A) Waive IPv6 assignment fees for end-users who request both IPv4
>> >>>>> and IPv6 simultaneously.
>> >>>>> 1B) Move the </40 small/x-small threshold to <=/48.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> 2) Provide additional motivation for orgs to request and deploy
>IPv6.
>> >>>>> There are several top of mind methods to accomplish this:
>> >>>>> 2A) Require the officer attestation to acknowledge the current
>> >>>>> state of affairs regarding IPv4 exhaustion and IPv6 requirements.
>> >>>>> 2B) Continue or even ramp up (especially targeting end users)
>ARINs
>> >>>>> outreach efforts (which have been substantial in previous years
>but
>> >>>>> are being wound down post IANA-exhaustion).
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Cheers,
>> >>>>> ~Chris
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> --
>> >>>>> @ChrisGrundemann
>> >>>>> http://chrisgrundemann.com
>> >>>>> _______________________________________________
>> >>>>> ARIN-Discuss
>> >>>>> You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to
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>> >>>>> Please contact info at arin.net<mailto:info at arin.net> if you
>experience any issues.
>> >>>> _______________________________________________
>> >>>> ARIN-Discuss
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>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> @ChrisGrundemann
>> >> http://chrisgrundemann.com
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> ARIN-Discuss
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