<html><body><div style="color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:times new roman, new york, times, serif;font-size:12pt"><div><span><br></span></div><div><br><blockquote style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); margin-left: 5px; margin-top: 5px; padding-left: 5px;"> <div class="yui_3_2_0_24_133699598623461" style="font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif; font-size: 12pt;"> <div class="yui_3_2_0_24_133699598623463" style="font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif; font-size: 12pt;"> <div dir="ltr"> <font face="Arial" size="2"> <hr size="1"> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b> "john@quonix.net" <john@quonix.net><br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> arin-discuss@arin.net <br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Monday, May 14, 2012 4:17 PM<br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [arin-discuss] Encouraging IPv6 Transition (From PPML)<br> </font>
</div> <br>
I've been following this thread today, many good points, and some of these <br>points answer the fundamental issue... Why is v6 transition going so <br>slowly? <br><br>Its a chicken and egg scenario. The internet is a combination of people <br>who use content (i.e. users behind an ISP), and people who host up content <br>(i.e. servers in a datacenter). <br><br>Right now there is very little global v6 use. People in datacenters aren't <br>jumping into v6 because very few people are using content over v6. <br>Likewise, even if the end user cared, very little content exists on v6 for <br>end users to request anyway<br><br> </div></div></blockquote><div class="yui_3_2_0_24_133699598623461" style="font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif; font-size: 12pt;"><div class="yui_3_2_0_24_133699598623463" style="font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif; font-size: 12pt;">Content wanted to break the chicken and egg dilemma last year and ran<br>World
IPv6 Day. Worked great, and big content is turning it on forever on<br>June 6:<br>http://www.worldipv6launch.org/participants/?q=1<br>Google, Facebook, YouTube, Yahoo, Bing, Netflix, AOL. And a couple<br>thousand others. <br><br>By the way, you can sign up your own website and your own ISP. It's<br>coordinated by ISOC.<br><br></div></div><blockquote style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); margin-left: 5px; margin-top: 5px; padding-left: 5px;"><div class="yui_3_2_0_24_133699598623461" style="font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif; font-size: 12pt;"><div class="yui_3_2_0_24_133699598623463" style="font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif; font-size: 12pt;"><br>One of these groups needs to "jump" so to speak. If the top 4 ISPs in the <br>US moved over to v6 - content providers in datacenters would start to care <br>about using v6. But thats not going to happen anytime soon.
<br></div></div></blockquote>Next month.<br><div class="yui_3_2_0_24_133699598623461" style="font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif; font-size: 12pt;"><div class="yui_3_2_0_24_133699598623463" style="font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif; font-size: 12pt;"><br></div></div><blockquote style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); margin-left: 5px; margin-top: 5px; padding-left: 5px;"><div class="yui_3_2_0_24_133699598623461" style="font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif; font-size: 12pt;"><div class="yui_3_2_0_24_133699598623463" style="font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif; font-size: 12pt;"><br>Here is my idea.... Get more end users requesting data over v6 through v4 <br>tunnels that are built into their operating system and browser - without <br>them knowing it! This will cause a jump start. If the newer Mac and <br>Windows OS's had built-in v4-to-v6 tunneling, and the browsers forced <br>requests to
AAAA records, then the worlds content providers would see <br>larger and larger amounts of traffic coming in over v6 and this would <br>cause people to start to change. <br><br></div></div></blockquote><div class="yui_3_2_0_24_133699598623461" style="font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif; font-size: 12pt;"><div class="yui_3_2_0_24_133699598623463" style="font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif; font-size: 12pt;">6to4 had a lot of problems. See ARIN's wiki, http://getipv6.info/index.php/Customer_problems_that_could_occur<br>for example.<br>Dual stack is the way to go, and it's on by default in Vista, Win7, Mac OS X, and *nix.<br>More home gateways need it, but that's why there's a CPE category in World IPv6 Launch.<br><br><br>Lee<br><br><br></div></div><blockquote style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); margin-left: 5px; margin-top: 5px; padding-left: 5px;"><div style="font-family: times new roman, new york, times,
serif; font-size: 12pt;"><div style="font-family: times new roman, new york, times, serif; font-size: 12pt;"><br>Just my 2 cents....<br><br>-John Von Essen<br><br>----------------------------------------------------<br>>From : Jesse D. Geddis <<a ymailto="mailto:jesse@la-broadband.com" href="mailto:jesse@la-broadband.com">jesse@la-broadband.com</a>><br>To : <a ymailto="mailto:bpasdar@batblue.com" href="mailto:bpasdar@batblue.com">bpasdar@batblue.com</a> <<a ymailto="mailto:bpasdar@batblue.com" href="mailto:bpasdar@batblue.com">bpasdar@batblue.com</a>>, John Brown <br><<a ymailto="mailto:john@citylinkfiber.com" href="mailto:john@citylinkfiber.com">john@citylinkfiber.com</a>> <br>Subject : Re: [arin-discuss] Encouraging IPv6 Transition (From PPML)<br>Date : Mon, 14 May 2012 23:44:07 +0000<br>> Lets explore that question. First, my point of reference. I have over <br>20,000 residential consumers (end users) directly connected on my
network. <br>I am a service provider and the owner. I also have an equal number of <br>enterprise and service provider customers but they aren't in scope of this <br>conversation. I rolled out IPv6 to all of my residential users and NAT <br>their v4. I didn't get any complaints about things not working. Tellingly, <br>I also didn't get a single user out of that 20,000 end users that even <br>noticed they had a v6 address. AT&T as well as any other carrier can do <br>this today. The technology to do this has existed for over a decade. <br>> <br>> I am Joe Blow next door to you. My internet works, all my needs are met, <br>we'll say it's FiOS so it's "fast". What would compel me to ask verizon <br>why they aren't supporting IPv6? Will my internet be faster? Will my <br>internet be more reliable? Will I gain any functionality by utilizing v6? <br>The answer to all these questions is invariably "no". Trumpeting v6 to end <br>users is both
inefficient and un-compelling. <br>> <br>> Again, using Westfield as an example. What would compel me to go to my <br>carrier and demand v6 address space? It's more work for me, it provides no <br>additional functionality in the next budgetary cycle. Why bother? <br>> <br>> ARIN has a tool (the only tool ARIN has in fact) of setting requirements <br>before assigning additional address space. Please correct me if I'm wrong <br>but my impression is that this tool is either not being wielded or it is <br>not being wielded effectively. Otherwise I would be getting assigned a v6 <br>address by AT&T today. <br>> <br>> By directly targeting enterprise and end users we would be going about <br>it backwards. I as a service provider chose to put all my residential <br>users on v6 space. The size of perceived nimbleness of AT&T or Verizon is <br>irrelevant. Remember the adage Necessity breeds ingenuity? If they can't <br>get more address
space unless they start making concrete efforts to roll <br>out v6 to their end users they will not change their behaviour. <br>> <br>> --<br>> Jesse D. Geddis<br>> LA Broadband LLC<br>> <br>> <br>> From: Babak Pasdar <<a ymailto="mailto:bpasdar@batblue.com" href="mailto:bpasdar@batblue.com">bpasdar@batblue.com</a><mailto:<a ymailto="mailto:bpasdar@batblue.com" href="mailto:bpasdar@batblue.com">bpasdar@batblue.com</a>>><br>> Organization: Bat Blue Networks<br>> Reply-To: "<a ymailto="mailto:bpasdar@batblue.com" href="mailto:bpasdar@batblue.com">bpasdar@batblue.com</a><mailto:<a ymailto="mailto:bpasdar@batblue.com" href="mailto:bpasdar@batblue.com">bpasdar@batblue.com</a>>" <br><<a ymailto="mailto:bpasdar@batblue.com" href="mailto:bpasdar@batblue.com">bpasdar@batblue.com</a><mailto:<a ymailto="mailto:bpasdar@batblue.com" href="mailto:bpasdar@batblue.com">bpasdar@batblue.com</a>>> <br>> Date:
Monday, May 14, 2012 4:24 PM<br>> To: Jesse Geddis <br><<a ymailto="mailto:jesse@la-broadband.com" href="mailto:jesse@la-broadband.com">jesse@la-broadband.com</a><mailto:<a ymailto="mailto:jesse@la-broadband.com" href="mailto:jesse@la-broadband.com">jesse@la-broadband.com</a>>>, John Brown <br><<a ymailto="mailto:john@citylinkfiber.com" href="mailto:john@citylinkfiber.com">john@citylinkfiber.com</a><mailto:<a ymailto="mailto:john@citylinkfiber.com" href="mailto:john@citylinkfiber.com">john@citylinkfiber.com</a>>> <br>> Cc: "<a ymailto="mailto:arin-discuss@arin.net" href="mailto:arin-discuss@arin.net">arin-discuss@arin.net</a><mailto:<a ymailto="mailto:arin-discuss@arin.net" href="mailto:arin-discuss@arin.net">arin-discuss@arin.net</a>>" <br><<a ymailto="mailto:arin-discuss@arin.net" href="mailto:arin-discuss@arin.net">arin-discuss@arin.net</a><mailto:<a ymailto="mailto:arin-discuss@arin.net"
href="mailto:arin-discuss@arin.net">arin-discuss@arin.net</a>>> <br>> Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Encouraging IPv6 Transition (From PPML)<br>> <br>> Jesse,<br>> <br>> Could it be that your view is based on your own experiences with <br>carriers and customers and that may not reflect the industry on average. <br>The people who don't don't understand the concept of data centers or how <br>the Internet works are not the folks that I (and most likely the rest of <br>the respondents in this thread) are targeting. <br>> <br>> Also, I do not see AT&T as an organization that is competitively agile <br>to be a leader in this space. Others have and most likely will continue <br>to lead on this. When they do, AT&T will follow. <br>> <br>> Best Regards,<br>> <br>> Babak<br>> <br>> --<br>> Babak Pasdar | President & CEO | Certified Ethical Hacker | Bat Blue <br>Networks <br>> (p)
212.461.3322 x3005 | (w) BatBlue.com<<a href="http://batblue.com/" target="_blank">http://batblue.com/</a>> | (t) <br>@bpasdar<<a href="https://twitter.com/bpasdar" target="_blank">https://twitter.com/bpasdar</a>> : <br>@batblue<<a href="https://twitter.com/batblue" target="_blank">https://twitter.com/batblue</a>> <br>> <br>> Learn About Cloud Security: Cloud Security <br>Video<<a href="http://www.batblue.com/page.php?96" target="_blank">http://www.batblue.com/page.php?96</a>> | Cloud Network <br>Video<<a href="http://www.batblue.com/page.php?97" target="_blank">http://www.batblue.com/page.php?97</a>> <br>> <br>> Bat Blue is The Official Provider for ESPN X <br>Games<<a href="http://www.batblue.com/page.php?72" target="_blank">http://www.batblue.com/page.php?72</a>> <br>> ________________________________<br>> From: Jesse D. Geddis [mailto:<a ymailto="mailto:jesse@la-broadband.com"
href="mailto:jesse@la-broadband.com">jesse@la-broadband.com</a>]<br>> To: John Brown [mailto:<a ymailto="mailto:john@citylinkfiber.com" href="mailto:john@citylinkfiber.com">john@citylinkfiber.com</a>]<br>> Cc: <a ymailto="mailto:arin-discuss@arin.net" href="mailto:arin-discuss@arin.net">arin-discuss@arin.net</a><mailto:<a ymailto="mailto:arin-discuss@arin.net" href="mailto:arin-discuss@arin.net">arin-discuss@arin.net</a>> <br>[mailto:<a ymailto="mailto:arin-discuss@arin.net" href="mailto:arin-discuss@arin.net">arin-discuss@arin.net</a>] <br>> Sent: Mon, 14 May 2012 19:16:40 -0400<br>> Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Encouraging IPv6 Transition (From PPML)<br>> <br>> I don't mean to be contrary here but these concepts are far too abstract <br>for 99.9% of end users whom will have no point of reference. Most people I <br>talk to didn't even know of the existence of data centres let alone have <br>any clue what v4 vs v6 is. And why
should they? There would be no direct <br>benefit to the end user being on v6 over v4 or both. To them their <br>"Internet" either works or it doesn't. Requiring implementation by the <br>major carriers who are dragging their feet by saying no more IPs until <br>they show they are on board is much more compelling. <br>> <br>> Jesse Geddis<br>> LA Broadband LLC<br>> ASN 16602<br>> <br>> On May 14, 2012, at 3:31 PM, "John Brown" <br><<a ymailto="mailto:john@citylinkfiber.com" href="mailto:john@citylinkfiber.com">john@citylinkfiber.com</a><mailto:<a ymailto="mailto:john@citylinkfiber.com" href="mailto:john@citylinkfiber.com">john@citylinkfiber.com</a>>> wrote: <br>> <br>> > Hi folks,<br>> ><br>> > IPv6 uptake is about end-users having a reason to care.<br>> > When they care, then the $ervice providers care.<br>> ><br>> > I suspect that when the 3.141 /8's are gone
from ARIN, then people <br>will <br>> > really care and FAST.<br>> ><br>> > I still have service providers that tell me they don't have IPv6 <br>available <br>> > today. National transit providers aren't fully supporting it yet.<br>> ><br>> > We have to find something(s) that will get the end user to give a darn <br>and <br>> > WANT IT.<br>> ><br>> > On 5/14/12 4:23 PM, "Chris Grundemann" <br><<a ymailto="mailto:cgrundemann@gmail.com" href="mailto:cgrundemann@gmail.com">cgrundemann@gmail.com</a><mailto:<a ymailto="mailto:cgrundemann@gmail.com" href="mailto:cgrundemann@gmail.com">cgrundemann@gmail.com</a>>> wrote: <br>> ><br>> >> On Mon, May 14, 2012 at 4:07 PM, Owen DeLong <br><<a ymailto="mailto:owen@delong.com" href="mailto:owen@delong.com">owen@delong.com</a><mailto:<a ymailto="mailto:owen@delong.com" href="mailto:owen@delong.com">owen@delong.com</a>>> wrote:
<br>> >>> I would oppose this unless you're also willing to waive IPv6 <br>assignment <br>> >>> fees that do not accompany an IPv4 resource application. I see no<br>> >>> benefit to the community from requiring people to consume extra IPv4<br>> >>> just to get a free IPv6 assignment. (Well, actually, I do see a <br>small <br>> >>> benefit in exhausting IPv4 and getting on with transition faster, <br>but, I <br>> >>> don't think it's necessarily good stewardship).<br>> >><br>> >> You're right Owen, I was over-simplifying. My fear is that a total <br>fee <br>> >> waiver may hurt ARIN financially. Even free initial-assignments may<br>> >> cause harm.<br>> >><br>> >> I don't have ARINs budget at my fingertips, perhaps a staffer can let<br>> >> us know how much it might cost to make initial IPv6 assignments (to<br>>
>> end-users) free for a year and then half price for a year.<br>> >><br>> >> That would do two things: First, it lowers a potential barrier, pure<br>> >> cost of assignment. Second, it puts a touch of urgency on initial <br>IPv6 <br>> >> requests: "Hey boss, we have to at least get our assignment this year<br>> >> if we don't want to be forced to pay later..."<br>> >><br>> >> ~Chris<br>> >><br>> >>> Owen<br>> >>><br>> >>><br>> >>> Sent from my iPad<br>> >>><br>> >>> On May 14, 2012, at 3:03 PM, Scott Leibrand <br><<a ymailto="mailto:scottleibrand@gmail.com" href="mailto:scottleibrand@gmail.com">scottleibrand@gmail.com</a><mailto:<a ymailto="mailto:scottleibrand@gmail.com" href="mailto:scottleibrand@gmail.com">scottleibrand@gmail.com</a>>> <br>> >>> wrote:<br>>
>>><br>> >>>> IMO 1A and 2A might usefully go together as a carrot + stick <br>approach. <br>> >>>> A little extra attestation work in exchange for a "get v6 free with<br>> >>>> your v4" offer should encourage v6 adoption without increasing the<br>> >>>> overall time+cost burden on the orgs applying for space.<br>> >>>><br>> >>>> Scott<br>> >>>><br>> >>>> On May 14, 2012, at 10:53 AM, Chris Grundemann <br><<a ymailto="mailto:cgrundemann@gmail.com" href="mailto:cgrundemann@gmail.com">cgrundemann@gmail.com</a><mailto:<a ymailto="mailto:cgrundemann@gmail.com" href="mailto:cgrundemann@gmail.com">cgrundemann@gmail.com</a>>> <br>> >>>> wrote:<br>> >>>><br>> >>>>> Four ideas to promote IPv6 deployment, for your consideration and<br>> >>>>>
discussion:<br>> >>>>><br>> >>>>> 1) Make it as easy as possible for an org who actually wants IPv6 <br>to <br>> >>>>> get it. This is mostly in place today (allocation fee waivers, one<br>> >>>>> maint. fee per Org ID, ease of qualification, etc.) but there is <br>still <br>> >>>>> some possible room for improvement:<br>> >>>>> 1A) Waive IPv6 assignment fees for end-users who request both IPv4<br>> >>>>> and IPv6 simultaneously.<br>> >>>>> 1B) Move the </40 small/x-small threshold to <=/48.<br>> >>>>><br>> >>>>> 2) Provide additional motivation for orgs to request and deploy <br>IPv6. <br>> >>>>> There are several top of mind methods to accomplish this:<br>> >>>>> 2A) Require the officer attestation to acknowledge the current<br>>
>>>>> state of affairs regarding IPv4 exhaustion and IPv6 requirements.<br>> >>>>> 2B) Continue or even ramp up (especially targeting end users) <br>ARINs <br>> >>>>> outreach efforts (which have been substantial in previous years <br>but <br>> >>>>> are being wound down post IANA-exhaustion).<br>> >>>>><br>> >>>>> Cheers,<br>> >>>>> ~Chris<br>> >>>>><br>> >>>>> --<br>> >>>>> @ChrisGrundemann<br>> >>>>> <a href="http://chrisgrundemann.com" target="_blank">http://chrisgrundemann.com</a><br>> >>>>> _______________________________________________<br>> >>>>> ARIN-Discuss<br>> >>>>> You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to<br>> >>>>> the ARIN Discussion Mailing List <br>(<a
ymailto="mailto:ARIN-discuss@arin.net" href="mailto:ARIN-discuss@arin.net">ARIN-discuss@arin.net</a><mailto:<a ymailto="mailto:ARIN-discuss@arin.net" href="mailto:ARIN-discuss@arin.net">ARIN-discuss@arin.net</a>>). <br>> >>>>> Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:<br>> >>>>> <a href="http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss" target="_blank">http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss</a><br>> >>>>> Please contact <a ymailto="mailto:info@arin.net" href="mailto:info@arin.net">info@arin.net</a><mailto:<a ymailto="mailto:info@arin.net" href="mailto:info@arin.net">info@arin.net</a>> if you <br>experience any issues. <br>> >>>> _______________________________________________<br>> >>>> ARIN-Discuss<br>> >>>> You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to<br>> >>>> the ARIN Discussion
Mailing List <br>(<a ymailto="mailto:ARIN-discuss@arin.net" href="mailto:ARIN-discuss@arin.net">ARIN-discuss@arin.net</a><mailto:<a ymailto="mailto:ARIN-discuss@arin.net" href="mailto:ARIN-discuss@arin.net">ARIN-discuss@arin.net</a>>). <br>> >>>> Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:<br>> >>>> <a href="http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss" target="_blank">http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss</a><br>> >>>> Please contact <a ymailto="mailto:info@arin.net" href="mailto:info@arin.net">info@arin.net</a><mailto:<a ymailto="mailto:info@arin.net" href="mailto:info@arin.net">info@arin.net</a>> if you <br>experience any issues. <br>> >><br>> >><br>> >><br>> >> --<br>> >> @ChrisGrundemann<br>> >> <a href="http://chrisgrundemann.com" target="_blank">http://chrisgrundemann.com</a><br>> >>
_______________________________________________<br>> >> ARIN-Discuss<br>> >> You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to<br>> >> the ARIN Discussion Mailing List <br>(<a ymailto="mailto:ARIN-discuss@arin.net" href="mailto:ARIN-discuss@arin.net">ARIN-discuss@arin.net</a><mailto:<a ymailto="mailto:ARIN-discuss@arin.net" href="mailto:ARIN-discuss@arin.net">ARIN-discuss@arin.net</a>>). <br>> >> Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:<br>> >> <a href="http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss" target="_blank">http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss</a><br>> >> Please contact <a ymailto="mailto:info@arin.net" href="mailto:info@arin.net">info@arin.net</a><mailto:<a ymailto="mailto:info@arin.net" href="mailto:info@arin.net">info@arin.net</a>> if you experience <br>any issues. <br>> ><br>> >
_______________________________________________<br>> > ARIN-Discuss<br>> > You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to<br>> > the ARIN Discussion Mailing List <br>(<a ymailto="mailto:ARIN-discuss@arin.net" href="mailto:ARIN-discuss@arin.net">ARIN-discuss@arin.net</a><mailto:<a ymailto="mailto:ARIN-discuss@arin.net" href="mailto:ARIN-discuss@arin.net">ARIN-discuss@arin.net</a>>). <br>> > Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:<br>> > <a href="http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss" target="_blank">http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss</a><br>> > Please contact <a ymailto="mailto:info@arin.net" href="mailto:info@arin.net">info@arin.net</a><mailto:<a ymailto="mailto:info@arin.net" href="mailto:info@arin.net">info@arin.net</a>> if you experience <br>any issues. <br>> _______________________________________________<br>> ARIN-Discuss<br>> You
are receiving this message because you are subscribed to<br>> the ARIN Discussion Mailing List <br>(<a ymailto="mailto:ARIN-discuss@arin.net" href="mailto:ARIN-discuss@arin.net">ARIN-discuss@arin.net</a><mailto:<a ymailto="mailto:ARIN-discuss@arin.net" href="mailto:ARIN-discuss@arin.net">ARIN-discuss@arin.net</a>>). <br>> Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:<br>> <a href="http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss" target="_blank">http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss</a><br>> Please contact <a ymailto="mailto:info@arin.net" href="mailto:info@arin.net">info@arin.net</a><mailto:<a ymailto="mailto:info@arin.net" href="mailto:info@arin.net">info@arin.net</a>> if you experience any <br>issues. <br>> _______________________________________________<br>> ARIN-Discuss<br>> You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to<br>> the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (<a
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