[arin-discuss] Good Stewardship by example, I'd like to RETURN a /20

VAUGHN THURMAN - SWIFT SYSTEMS INC Vaughn at SwiftSystems.com
Fri Jul 24 14:04:02 EDT 2009


:- /

Sure, I get the point.

-----Original Message-----
From: John Brown [mailto:john at citylinkfiber.com] 
Sent: Friday, July 24, 2009 2:00 PM
To: VAUGHN THURMAN - SWIFT SYSTEMS INC; Heidi Dohse; arin-discuss at arin.net
Subject: RE: [arin-discuss] Good Stewardship by example, I'd like to RETURN
a /20

www.arin.net 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: VAUGHN THURMAN - SWIFT SYSTEMS INC 
> [mailto:Vaughn at SwiftSystems.com] 
> Sent: Friday, July 24, 2009 11:55 AM
> To: 'Heidi Dohse'; John Brown; arin-discuss at arin.net
> Subject: RE: [arin-discuss] Good Stewardship by example, I'd 
> like to RETURN a /20
> 
> Ditto, can someone provide info links to this event in Michigan?
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Heidi Dohse [mailto:heidi at nuwave.com]
> Sent: Friday, July 24, 2009 1:42 PM
> To: 'John Brown'; 'VAUGHN THURMAN - SWIFT SYSTEMS INC'; 
> arin-discuss at arin.net
> Subject: RE: [arin-discuss] Good Stewardship by example, I'd 
> like to RETURN a /20
> 
> Ok - I hadn't planned to go to the Michigan meeting. I have 
> changed my mind.
> 
> 
> In the past I have worked for the "Big Guy" with lots of resources.
> Currently I am working with a rural "small guy" provider and 
> I am the resource (sad but true).  When I first started, 15 
> years ago, the IP world was pretty much just data traffic. 
> Now the IP world consists of Voice, Data and convergent 
> communication networks that deliver it all. The number of IP 
> driven end-user devices is just going to keep growing. I 
> guess it will take all of us working together so we don't 
> break the network. My company is in the process of making 
> sure that we will be IPv6 compatible, but need to request 
> additional IPv4 space too.  
> 
> If I can help be an advocate for small ISPs - though I can't 
> guarantee that I have a clue (per the email below :-) - I am 
> willing to be involved.  
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Heidi Dohse
> NuWave Communications
> heidi at nuwave.com
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net 
> [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net]
> On Behalf Of John Brown
> Sent: Friday, July 24, 2009 10:51 AM
> To: VAUGHN THURMAN - SWIFT SYSTEMS INC; arin-discuss at arin.net
> Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Good Stewardship by example, I'd 
> like to RETURN a /20
> 
> Actually what the small ISP's need to do is to place people 
> on the AC and on the BoT.
> 
> Find people within the small guy world that have clue and get 
> them nominated and then get them elected to the BoT and or 
> the AC.  (note well, I believe that the BoT and AC have 
> generally done a good job.)
> 
> Internet governance is a "stakeholder" (ducking now) driven 
> process.  So if you give a darn, you have to participate in a 
> meaning full manner.
> And be willing to invest in your time for the betterment of 
> the entire community.
> 
> 
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net
> > [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of VAUGHN 
> THURMAN - 
> > SWIFT SYSTEMS INC
> > Sent: Friday, July 24, 2009 10:41 AM
> > To: arin-discuss at arin.net
> > Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Good Stewardship by example,I'd like to 
> > RETURN a /20
> > 
> > I agree.  There are plenty of good operations doing a few million a 
> > year in sales who seriously cannot afford the combined travel costs 
> > and lost time of key staff. Sending the receptionist 
> doesn't do much 
> > good.  I really feel like the small ISP's need to band up, share 
> > expenses and delegate/hire a competent and loyal representative.
> > 
> >   
> > 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: John Brown [mailto:john at citylinkfiber.com]
> > Sent: Friday, July 24, 2009 12:37 PM
> > To: VAUGHN THURMAN - SWIFT SYSTEMS INC; Owen DeLong
> > Cc: arin-discuss at arin.net
> > Subject: RE: [arin-discuss] Good Stewardship by example,I'd like to 
> > RETURN a /20
> > 
> > When I was on the ARIN AC once upon a time, I often 
> mentioned that the 
> > small guy wasn't considered as much as ARIN should be.  I was told 
> > that I was incorrect.  Hmm, I still think the small ISP, 
> rural ISP is 
> > still overlooked.
> > 
> > The small rural ISP doesn't have the time, or in many cases 
> the money 
> > to
> > fly and attend a ARIN meeting in some "expensive" city.   I 
> had hoped
> > that more local out-reach could be done with local meetings.  
> > 
> > Associating ARIN meetings with NANOG meetings, while 
> generally a good 
> > idea, also doesn't solve the issue for the small guy.  Must small 
> > ISP's don't attend NANOG either, for much the same reasons.
> > 
> > This creates an impression that personal participation in ARIN is 
> > limited to the "BIG Guys", those that can afford to spend $1500 or 
> > more in travel and other costs to attend an ARIN meeting.
> > 
> > As has been mentioned many a time on this and other lists, 
> > participation is key.  Whinning is non-productive, constructive 
> > suggestions are productive.
> > 
> > There is also an educational ramp up issue to look at.  
> Many of those 
> > on this list have been involved with netops for decades, 
> many of the 
> > questions have been asked and answered before, newer people now 
> > getting involved will ask those questions again.  It may be 
> useful for 
> > the AC to work on a list of "common" questions for the website.
> > 
> > 1. Why can or can't ARIN just make XXX return their space.
> > 	Pre ARIN      allocated
> > 	Pre InterNIC  allocated
> > 
> > Etc.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > In general the community needs to keep an open mind to the 
> questions 
> > that come forward.  There could be good ideas in there.
> > 
> > A detailed look at the space, and really what is in use vs 
> allocated 
> > needs to be conducted.
> > 
> > 
> > With respects to IPv6.  Bottom line.  That train is coming to town, 
> > get your depot built and ready to receive the cargo, or be 
> by-passed.  
> > The fact that your provider doesn't have it yet is an 
> invalid excuse.  
> > Get it working internally, use a tunnel broker, but get it 
> working.  
> > Then BUG THE HECK out of your providers sales guy every 
> other week.  
> > They will get the message.
> > 
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net
> > > [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of VAUGHN
> > THURMAN -
> > > SWIFT SYSTEMS INC
> > > Sent: Friday, July 24, 2009 10:08 AM
> > > To: 'Owen DeLong'
> > > Cc: arin-discuss at arin.net
> > > Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Good Stewardship by 
> example,I'd like to 
> > > RETURN a /20
> > > 
> > > Thanks for fleshing that out Owen.
> > > 
> > >  
> > > 
> > > I think the issue is that small ISP's (overworked and often
> > > overwhelmed) have not been paying attention.
> > > 
> > >  
> > > 
> > > I think the "community" is being represented by a subset
> > that seems to
> > > have (opinion here, not asserting as fact) been
> > under-representing the
> > > small ISP's, which by the way make up the bulk of the
> > community - the
> > > silent majority in fact.
> > > 
> > >  
> > > 
> > > I hope I am not the only part of the sleeping bear that has been 
> > > awakened, but believe we are paying more attention now.
> > > You might not be so lonely on that stance should it come up again.
> > > 
> > >  
> > > 
> > > ~Vaughn
> > > 
> > >  
> > > 
> > > From: Owen DeLong [mailto:owen at delong.com]
> > > Sent: Friday, July 24, 2009 11:15 AM
> > > To: VAUGHN THURMAN - SWIFT SYSTEMS INC
> > > Cc: arin-discuss at arin.net
> > > Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Good Stewardship by example,
> > I'd like to
> > > RETURN a /20
> > > 
> > >  
> > > 
> > > 	
> > > 	PS.  I also just learned (from an offline conversation,
> > quote below)
> > > that
> > > 	ARIN recently set a policy to allow the selling of IP
> > space (paid
> > > transfers)
> > > 	between organizations.  Does this seem counter to good
> > stewardship in
> > > a time
> > > 	of impending depletion?  If I have my head on straight,
> > this is a
> > > pretty
> > > 	kind act towards those same early/big assignment
> > holders, isn't it?
> > > 
> > >  
> > > 
> > > You say "ARIN recently set" as if ARIN was some third 
> party setting 
> > > policy
> > > 
> > > independent of input from the membership or the community.
> > > 
> > >  
> > > 
> > > While the policy proposals in question took a tortured and
> > circuitous
> > > route
> > > 
> > > to adoption, it was definitely done with community input 
> and support
> > > 
> > > throughout the process.
> > > 
> > >  
> > > 
> > > It is a matter of record that I was the only dissenting voice in 
> > > passing
> > > 
> > > policy proposal 2009-1, and, that I did so strictly 
> because I felt 
> > > that the
> > > 
> > > community's interests were not represented in the removal of the 
> > > sunset
> > > 
> > > clause. Given the lack of support for subsequently restoring the 
> > > sunset
> > > 
> > > clause both in the AC and apparently on PPML, I can only conclude
> > > 
> > > that my belief the community wanted the sunset clause may 
> well have
> > > 
> > > been incorrect.
> > > 
> > >  
> > > 
> > > While I remain unconvinced that a liberalized transfer
> > policy is good
> > > 
> > > policy, I am convinced that of the community which was 
> participating
> > > 
> > > in policy development at the time the issue was being considered, 
> > > there
> > > 
> > > was/is strong support for such a policy.
> > > 
> > >  
> > > 
> > > I do not believe the ARIN should adopt bad policy just 
> because there
> > > 
> > > is strong community support for it.  However, I do 
> believe that if 
> > > ARIN
> > > 
> > > (specifically the AC and the BoT) are going to go against strong
> > > 
> > > community support, then, they should be somewhat certain that the
> > > 
> > > policy in question is bad policy. I am not sufficiently
> > certain that
> > > the
> > > 
> > > relaxed transfer policy is bad policy.
> > > 
> > >  
> > > 
> > > Owen
> > > 
> > >  
> > > 
> > > The opinions above are mine and mine alone.  I am not speaking
> > > 
> > > for the AC and many members of the AC disagree with me on
> > > 
> > > this subject.
> > > 
> > >  
> > > 
> > > 
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
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