[arin-discuss] Good Stewardship by example, I'd like to RETURN a /20
Scott Leibrand
scottleibrand at gmail.com
Wed Jul 22 21:36:38 EDT 2009
Undoubtedly it is, as I am advocating using an "urban" datacenter
solution to work around those challenges.
When you get back to your PC, could you elaborate on which challenges
would make this workaround difficult?
And in case it wasn't clear from my detailed how-to, essentially what
I'm describing is getting PA space from someone other than the upstream
that provides your primary IP connectivity, and then getting your ISP to
route that space the same way they would space from ARIN.
-Scott
Vaughn Thurman - Swift Systems wrote:
> Meant to say... With all due respect...
>
> Sent from my handheld
>
Vaughn Thurman - Swift Systems wrote:
> Um, that response is disconnected from the challenges of a rural ISP
>
> Sent from my handheld
>
> On Jul 22, 2009, at 8:42 PM, Scott Leibrand <scottleibrand at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> If his ISP will route space he gets from another provider (or from
>> ARIN), but won't give him space, then I know of lots of folks who
>> will sell him a 10M Ethernet circuit in a datacenter somewhere, along
>> with as much address space as he can justify under ARIN policies. He
>> can then announce the space from both locations, with the datacenter
>> circuit serving only as a backup last-resort in the event that the
>> primary announcement (through their rural ISP) goes down. They can
>> anycast their DNS and mail servers out of the datacenter, or simply
>> tunnel all the packets back to their main network.
>>
>> -Scott
>>
>> Nathaniel B. Lyon wrote:
>>>
>>> I think what some of the smaller guys are talking about is this. I
>>> know of 1 ISP right now that is in a RURAL, RURAL area. Doing a
>>> great job of providing “cable” speeds to his customers over the
>>> air. His upstream has basically told him to f-off in terms of
>>> getting any more IPv4 addresses. He has 300+ customers, so he
>>> doesn’t qualify for a /20. He CAN’T multi-home, because there
>>> literally no other options in his area.
>>>
>>> What is he to do? Now ARIN freely handed out a /32 of IPv6
>>> addresses to him, but that doesn’t do him any good. Should he just
>>> throw the towel in because he isn’t large enough to get more IPv4
>>> addresses?
>>>
>>> Why can he have an IPv6 /32 but is nowhere near large enough for a
>>> /22 in the IPv6 range. Or hell even a /23, he is easily big enough
>>> for a /23. But ARIN’s minimum they will hand is a /20 if you are
>>> not multi-homed and a /22 if you are.
>>>
>>> This guy is screwed until IPv6 is knee deep.
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net
>>> [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] *On Behalf Of *Vaughn Thurman
>>> - Swift Systems
>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, July 22, 2009 7:23 PM
>>> *To:* arin-discuss at arin.net
>>> *Subject:* Re: [arin-discuss] Good Stewardship by example, I'd like
>>> to RETURN a /20
>>>
>>>
>>> Wow, so out come the naysayers... "Shut up you little fleas. Don't
>>> you know that the experts have spoken? Why study the issue when
>>> others have already said it is not worth it."
>>>
>>>
>>> The power of the press and public opinion are pretty powerful. Does
>>> a protracted battle against the interests of small ISP types or the
>>> "Internet community" really suit HP, Apple, or any of the other
>>> space Easters if in the public eye? Think about the good will a few
>>> have gotten on this list by committing to return space..
>>>
>>> You don't get what you don't ask for.
>>>
>>>
>>> Try! Aim high and risk falling short. Aiming low is too easy to
>>> succeed at for a group this bright.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ~Vaughn
>>>
>>> Sent from my handheld
>>>
>>>
>>> On Jul 22, 2009, at 7:48 PM, Owen DeLong <owen at delong.com
>>> <mailto:owen at delong.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> On Jul 22, 2009, at 1:06 PM, Steve Wagner wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> As a note it's not just the /8's. I am in Idaho. The State of
>>> Idaho has a Class B 164.165.0.0 All State government activities
>>> sit behind two different firewalls.
>>>
>>> Micron technology 137.201.0.0. Sits behind firewalls
>>>
>>> And so forth into perpetuity it seems
>>>
>>> In this regard by reclaiming this address space that companies
>>> have, particularly when the coropration sits behind NAT firewalls
>>> is unjustified. The ones I listed above use Private address
>>> space behind the firewall i.e. 10.X.X.X etc. So why then would a
>>> company entity that does this need to retain their public Class A,
>>> B, C etc. There is no technical or administrative justification I
>>> can see.
>>>
>>> Nevertheless, there was a comment about pre ARIN and Contract Law.
>>> Unfortunatley this may play the larger role over common sense.
>>>
>>> While this is not the ultimate solution, it certainly can stem the
>>> tide for many years.
>>>
>>> It would be an interesting study to examine the allocated IP
>>> address space by entity and determine how many of these
>>> organizations sit behind a NAT firewall, and only use a small
>>> portion of their allocation.
>>>
>>> Reclamation has been repeatedly studied, and, in general, the
>>> conclusion matches the following excerpt from a Cisco Journal
>>> article:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> http://www.cisco.com/web/about/ac123/ac147/archived_issues/ipj_8-3/ipv4.html
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *Reclaiming Allocations*
>>> Another debate occasionally resurfaces about reclaiming some
>>> of the early allocations to further extend the lifetime of
>>> IPv4. Hopefully this article has shown that the ROI for that
>>> approach is going to be extremely low. Discussions around the
>>> Internet community show there is an expectation that it will
>>> take several years of substantive negotiation (in multiple
>>> court systems around the globe) to retrieve any /8s. Then
>>> following that effort and expense, the likelihood of even
>>> getting back more than a few /8 blocks is very low. Following
>>> the allocation growth trend, after several years of litigation
>>> the result is likely to be just a few months of additional
>>> resource added to the pool—and possibly not even a whole
>>> month. All this assumes IANA does not completely run out
>>> before getting any back, because running out would result in
>>> pentup demand that could immediately exhaust any returns.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> If you can come up with credible figures indicating that there are
>>> at least 28 /8s worth of reclaimable space out there, then,
>>> reclamation efforts might be more interesting, but, I tend to
>>> doubt that is the case. If you can't reclaim at least 14 /8s, you
>>> don't even buy an additional year.
>>>
>>>
>>> Owen
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Steve Wagner
>>> Vice President of Operations
>>> Syringa Networks, LLC
>>> 3795 S Development Ave, Suite 100
>>> Boise, ID 83705
>>> Office: 208.229.6104
>>> Main: 208.229.6100
>>> Emergency: 1.800.454.7214
>>> Fax: 208.229.6110
>>> Email: Stwagner at syringanetworks.net
>>> <mailto:Stwagner at syringanetworks.net>
>>> Web: www.syringanetworks.net <http://www.syringanetworks.net>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> "Idaho's Premier Fiber Optic Network"
>>>
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>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net
>>> <mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net>
>>> [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of John Osmon
>>> Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2009 1:43 PM
>>> To: arin-discuss at arin.net <mailto:arin-discuss at arin.net>
>>> Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Good Stewardship by example, I'd like
>>> to RETURN a /20
>>>
>>> On Wed, Jul 22, 2009 at 01:32:19PM -0400, Joe Maimon wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> John Osmon wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> We're aren't going to save the IPv4 world by returning
>>> space, but
>>>
>>> we *will* make it easier on soe folks that are coming to
>>> the table
>>>
>>> (relatively) late.
>>>
>>>
>>> Hate to be a downer, but not at the current burn rate.
>>>
>>>
>>> Actually, I agree -- but don't tell the folks that think getting
>>> a couple of /8s back from HP, Apple, and the DOD is going to
>>> significant
>>> difference in the timing of IPv4 exhaustion. :-)
>>>
>>> I still think that anything you aren't using should go back to the
>>> pool that allows new comers a chance to participate in
>>> commerce/communication. I don't, however, think that a slew of
>>> /20s (or /8s) are going to make a big impact.
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