[arin-discuss] Good Stewardship by example, I'd like to RETURN a /20

Vaughn Thurman - Swift Systems vaughn at swiftsystems.com
Wed Jul 22 21:25:09 EDT 2009


Meant to say... With all due respect...

Sent from my handheld

On Jul 22, 2009, at 8:42 PM, Scott Leibrand <scottleibrand at gmail.com>  
wrote:

> If his ISP will route space he gets from another provider (or from  
> ARIN), but won't give him space, then I know of lots of folks who  
> will sell him a 10M Ethernet circuit in a datacenter somewhere,  
> along with as much address space as he can justify under ARIN  
> policies.  He can then announce the space from both locations, with  
> the datacenter circuit serving only as a backup last-resort in the  
> event that the primary announcement (through their rural ISP) goes  
> down.  They can anycast their DNS and mail servers out of the  
> datacenter, or simply tunnel all the packets back to their main  
> network.
>
> -Scott
>
> Nathaniel B. Lyon wrote:
>>
>> I think what some of the smaller guys are talking about is this.  I  
>> know of 1 ISP right now that is in a RURAL, RURAL area.  Doing a  
>> great job of providing “cable” speeds to his customers over the  
>> air.  His upstream has basically told him to f-off in terms of get 
>> ting any more IPv4 addresses.  He has 300+ customers, so he doesn’ 
>> t qualify for a /20.  He CAN’T multi-home, because there literally 
>>  no other options in his area.
>>
>> What is he to do?  Now ARIN freely handed out a /32 of IPv6  
>> addresses to him, but that doesn’t do him any good.  Should he jus 
>> t throw the towel in because he isn’t large enough to get more IPv 
>> 4 addresses?
>>
>> Why can he have an IPv6 /32 but is nowhere near large enough for a / 
>> 22 in the IPv6 range.  Or hell even a /23, he is easily big enough  
>> for a /23.  But ARIN’s minimum they will hand is a /20 if you are  
>> not multi-homed and a /22 if you are.
>>
>> This guy is screwed until IPv6 is knee deep.
>>
>>
>> *From:* arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net [mailto:arin-discuss- 
>> bounces at arin.net] *On Behalf Of *Vaughn Thurman - Swift Systems
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, July 22, 2009 7:23 PM
>> *To:* arin-discuss at arin.net
>> *Subject:* Re: [arin-discuss] Good Stewardship by example, I'd like  
>> to RETURN a /20
>>
>>
>> Wow, so out come the naysayers... "Shut up you little fleas. Don't  
>> you know that the experts have spoken? Why study the issue when  
>> others have already said it is not worth it."
>>
>>
>> The power of the press and public opinion are pretty powerful.   
>> Does a protracted battle against the interests of small ISP types  
>> or the "Internet community" really suit HP, Apple, or any of the  
>> other space Easters if in the public eye?  Think about the good  
>> will a few have gotten on this list by committing to return space..
>>
>> You don't get what you don't ask for.
>>
>>
>> Try!  Aim high and risk falling short.  Aiming low is too easy to  
>> succeed at for a group this bright.
>>
>>
>>
>> ~Vaughn
>>
>> Sent from my handheld
>>
>>
>> On Jul 22, 2009, at 7:48 PM, Owen DeLong <owen at delong.com <mailto:owen at delong.com 
>> >> wrote:
>>
>>
>>    On Jul 22, 2009, at 1:06 PM, Steve Wagner wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>    As a note it's not just the /8's. I am in Idaho.  The State of
>>    Idaho has a Class B 164.165.0.0 All State government activities
>>    sit behind two different firewalls.
>>
>>    Micron technology 137.201.0.0. Sits behind firewalls
>>
>>    And so forth into perpetuity it seems
>>
>>    In this regard by reclaiming this address space that companies
>>    have, particularly when the coropration sits behind NAT firewalls
>>    is unjustified.  The ones I listed above use  Private address
>>    space behind the firewall i.e. 10.X.X.X etc. So why then would a
>>    company entity that does this need to retain their public Class A,
>>    B, C etc. There is no technical or administrative justification I
>>    can see.
>>
>>    Nevertheless, there was a comment about pre ARIN and Contract Law.
>>    Unfortunatley this may play the larger role over common sense.
>>
>>    While this is not the ultimate solution, it certainly can stem the
>>    tide for many years.
>>
>>    It would be an interesting study to examine the allocated IP
>>    address space by entity and determine how many of these
>>    organizations sit behind a NAT firewall, and only use a small
>>    portion of their allocation.
>>
>>    Reclamation has been repeatedly studied, and, in general, the
>>    conclusion matches the following excerpt from a Cisco Journal  
>> article:
>>
>>
>>    http://www.cisco.com/web/about/ac123/ac147/archived_issues/ipj_8-3/ipv4.html
>>
>>
>>        *Reclaiming Allocations*
>>        Another debate occasionally resurfaces about reclaiming some
>>        of the early allocations to further extend the lifetime of
>>        IPv4. Hopefully this article has shown that the ROI for that
>>        approach is going to be extremely low. Discussions around the
>>        Internet community show there is an expectation that it will
>>        take several years of substantive negotiation (in multiple
>>        court systems around the globe) to retrieve any /8s. Then
>>        following that effort and expense, the likelihood of even
>>        getting back more than a few /8 blocks is very low. Following
>>        the allocation growth trend, after several years of litigation
>>        the result is likely to be just a few months of additional
>>        resource added to the pool—and possibly not even a whole
>>        month. All this assumes IANA does not completely run out
>>        before getting any back, because running out would result in
>>        pentup demand that could immediately exhaust any returns.
>>
>>
>>
>>    If you can come up with credible figures indicating that there are
>>    at least 28 /8s worth of reclaimable space out there, then,
>>    reclamation efforts might be more interesting, but, I tend to
>>    doubt that is the case. If you can't reclaim at least 14 /8s, you
>>    don't even buy an additional year.
>>
>>
>>    Owen
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>    Regards,
>>    Steve Wagner
>>    Vice President of Operations
>>    Syringa Networks, LLC
>>    3795 S Development Ave, Suite 100
>>    Boise, ID 83705
>>    Office: 208.229.6104
>>    Main: 208.229.6100
>>    Emergency: 1.800.454.7214
>>    Fax: 208.229.6110
>>    Email: Stwagner at syringanetworks.net
>>    <mailto:Stwagner at syringanetworks.net>
>>    Web: www.syringanetworks.net <http://www.syringanetworks.net>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>    "Idaho's Premier Fiber Optic Network"
>>
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>>
>>    -----Original Message-----
>>    From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net
>>    <mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net>
>>    [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of John Osmon
>>    Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2009 1:43 PM
>>    To: arin-discuss at arin.net <mailto:arin-discuss at arin.net>
>>    Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Good Stewardship by example, I'd like
>>    to RETURN a /20
>>
>>    On Wed, Jul 22, 2009 at 01:32:19PM -0400, Joe Maimon wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>        John Osmon wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>            We're aren't going to save the IPv4 world by returning
>>            space, but
>>
>>            we *will* make it easier on soe folks that are coming to
>>            the table
>>
>>            (relatively) late.
>>
>>
>>        Hate to be a downer, but not at the current burn rate.
>>
>>
>>    Actually, I agree -- but don't tell the folks that think getting
>>    a couple of /8s back from HP, Apple, and the DOD is going to
>>    significant
>>    difference in the timing of IPv4 exhaustion.  :-)
>>
>>    I still think that anything you aren't using should go back to the
>>    pool that allows new comers a chance to participate in
>>    commerce/communication.  I don't, however, think that a slew of
>>    /20s (or /8s) are going to make a big impact.
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