[arin-discuss] Food for thought: IPv4 accountability.

Sean Cheesman scheesman at level365.com
Wed Jul 22 20:53:08 EDT 2009 

Ok, this is getting ridiculous.  I have seen 4 unsubscribe requests alone today, and who knows how many through the "regular" channels.  Emails like this do NOTHING but pollute my mailbox, and obviously I'm not the only one who agrees.  Can we keep it constructive or keep it off-list?  Thank you...

Sean

-----Original Message-----
From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of kreg roenfeldt
Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2009 8:39 PM
To: arin-discuss at arin.net
Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Food for thought: IPv4 accountability.

Go outside and play.

-=Kreg

Scott Leibrand wrote:
> Jon,
>
> Thanks for the constructive suggestion.
>
> For anyone who is interested in policy development in this area, I
> would highly encourage you to subscribe to the Public Policy Mailing
> List, discuss this and other policy ideas, and make a proposal through
> the Policy Development Process if there appears to be support for an
> idea.  Myself or anyone else on the Advisory Council will be happy to
> work with you to assist in the process.
>
> It's also worth noting that the Policy Development Process (PDP),
> Public Policy Mailing List (PPML), and the Public Policy Meetings are
> all open to any interested party, whether or not they're an ARIN
> member or Designated Member Representative.  In addition, the members
> of the Advisory Council (which plays a key role in the PDP) and the
> Board of Trustees (which ratifies policies and sets fees, among other
> things) are elected by the membership.  We are currently in the
> process of soliciting questions to ask of nominees for either/both
> positions, so if there's an issue you feel strongly about, you should
> make sure the question is asked of candidates so you can vote
> accordingly.
>
> Thanks again,
> Scott
>
> Jon Auer wrote:
>> Who would be in favor of a policy along the lines of the following:
>>
>> ARIN shall not issue any IPv4 Number Resources unless the requesting
>> organization has:
>> 1. A IPv6 subnet properly allocated from ARIN
>> 2. Said IPv6 subnet is announced in the global IPv6 routing table
>> 3. Said IPv6 subnet is visible from a neutral 3rd party's looking
>> glass (routeviews.org or similar)
>> 4. Organization's customers or end users that would normally be
>> assigned a non-RFC1918 IPv4 address are given the option of
>> additionally being assigned a IPv6 subnet from said provider within 12
>> months or the IPv4 Number Resource granted under this policy shall be
>> revoked.
>>
>> I had a IPv6 subnet allocated from ARIN and routed globally though
>> HE.net's tunnel broker within 48 hours.
>> Meeting a policy like that should be easy.
>> Even if you are a large provider 12 months should be enough time to
>> get one customer running with IPv6 to demonstrate token compliance
>> with section 4...
>>
>> On Tue, Jul 21, 2009 at 9:42 PM, <arin-discuss-request at arin.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Send ARIN-discuss mailing list submissions to
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>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>> Today's Topics:
>>>
>>>   1. Re: Food for thought: IPv4 accountability. (Tony Valenti)
>>>
>>>
>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> Message: 1
>>> Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 21:42:39 -0500
>>> From: Tony Valenti <tony.valenti at powerdnn.com>
>>> To: John Brown <john at citylinkfiber.com>
>>> Cc: arin-discuss at arin.net
>>> Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Food for thought: IPv4 accountability.
>>> Message-ID:
>>>        <e82f9b9b0907211942i29d69571v236434239025e04f at mail.gmail.com>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"
>>>
>>> I'm in the same boat as one of the earlier readers mentioned.I think
>>> a big
>>> mistake that ARIN is making is that ARIN incorrectly assumes that we
>>> have
>>> something to do with making IPV6 a reality and managing IPV4 address
>>> space.
>>>
>>> Just recently I called one of our upstream providers (again) and
>>> asked them
>>> when we would be able to use IPV6 addresses.  After being escalated
>>> all the
>>> way to to their Level 4 engineers, i was told that they have no
>>> plans to
>>> implement IPV6 which means that if I put any content on an IPV6
>>> address, I
>>> can expect at a minimum, 25% of the US won't have access to it.
>>>
>>> So, assuming that the upstream providers like ours just simply don't
>>> care,
>>> and in a few years there is a black market for IPV4 address space
>>> because
>>> the internet is officially out, what will you do?  As a webhosting
>>> company,
>>> we have no choice but to pay whatever the black market price for IPs
>>> is or
>>> go out of business/quit accepting customers.
>>>
>>> If I sound unhappy, it is because I am.  ARIN continually emphasizes
>>> the
>>> problem of depleting IPV4 but never offers or enforces anything to
>>> fix the
>>> problem - they just make the current process harder.  ARIN is a
>>> doomsday
>>> prophet powerless to change the fate that we all will endure.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Jul 21, 2009 at 9:26 PM, John Brown <john at citylinkfiber.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>  I?ll ask the age old question again.
>>>>
>>>> What legal right does ARIN have to tell Apple to do anything?  If
>>>> Apple got
>>>> the space pre-ARIN and the rules where different then, what gives
>>>> ARIN the
>>>> ability to  enforce rules today.
>>>>
>>>> Its contracts law.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 7/21/09 8:14 PM, "Chris Gotstein" <chris at uplogon.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I would agree.  Us small guys don't want to get to a point where
>>>> the big
>>>> guys are holding available IP address space over our heads for a fee.
>>>> Those companies aren't just going to start dealing with every small
>>>> ISP
>>>> that comes along asking for address space.
>>>>
>>>> We've gone through the process of getting our initial IP space and
>>>> also
>>>> requesting additional IP space.  We were successful on both attempts
>>>> because we could prove we needed the space.  We also have an IPv6
>>>> block
>>>> and already have it implemented on our routers.  But at this time, the
>>>> only way you can run IPv6 is dual stack, i don't see us running pure
>>>> IPv6 for a long time to come.
>>>>
>>>> ARIN needs to step in and start dealing with these large, mostly
>>>> unused
>>>> blocks of IP address space.  A working group would be a good start, or
>>>> maybe it's just a matter of asking for justification from each of
>>>> these
>>>> companies.  ARIN has the right to poll current block holders of
>>>> address
>>>> space on justification, why can't they do the same on these large
>>>> blocks?  If HP and Apple can show they are using 80% or more of their
>>>> block, then they can keep it and we move on.  If not, then they should
>>>> break up their blocks, and return the un-used space to ARIN.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Chris Gotstein
>>>> Sr Network Engineer
>>>> UP Logon/Computer Connection UP
>>>> 500 N Stephenson Ave
>>>> Iron Mountain, MI 49801
>>>> Phone: 906-774-4847
>>>> Fax: 906-774-0335
>>>> chris at uplogon.com
>>>>
>>>> Kelvin Williams wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Whoa, whoa, whoa.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm sure I represent several others facing the depletion of IPv4. Our
>>>>>
>>>> Broadband division services residential and SMB DOCSIS and DSL
>>>> subscribers.
>>>>
>>>>> In a perfect world we would be servicing savvy subscribers running
>>>>> Linux
>>>>>
>>>> or current versions of Windows that support IPv6, and the majority
>>>> of web
>>>> destinations were running IPv6.
>>>>
>>>>> I can't implement NAT for our subscribers given that NAT can cause
>>>>>
>>>> problems for some of the services (VoIP, VPNs, etc) in use today.
>>>>
>>>>> So, if I'm reading this right, folks like me who are protecting what
>>>>>
>>>> blocks we manage from excess waste and paying for every block, will
>>>> now be
>>>> at the mercy of these /8 holders who may be utilizing a tiny
>>>> portion of the
>>>> blocks they are assigned when the "transfer market" comes into play.
>>>>
>>>>> Lovely, I can't wait until I'm paying $100 a year per IPv4 address
>>>>>
>>>> because they can go for that.
>>>>
>>>>> I think instead of talking on these lists that there should be a
>>>>> steering
>>>>>
>>>> group developed to address the real issues. Forcing Apple, HP and
>>>> the DoD to
>>>> implement IPv6 NOW freeing up those blocks. If they can't, they
>>>> need to pay.
>>>> In my opinion, especially when looking at the DoD most of their
>>>> networks
>>>> aren't accessed by the general public, so they can transition
>>>> versus the
>>>> ISPs of the world dealing with users still running Windows 98.
>>>>
>>>>> Additionally the group could reallocate those big blocks to the
>>>>>
>>>> responsible little guy with the aforementioned issues without the
>>>> establishment of a transfer market, and work to create a series of
>>>> large
>>>> bandwidth IPv4 to IPv6 gateways.
>>>>
>>>>> (All of the above was written after too many beers at the local brew
>>>>>
>>>> pub--if it doesn't make sense to you, it made sense to us)
>>>>
>>>>> Kw
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Kelvin Williams
>>>>> Altus Communications Group, Inc.
>>>>> Office Direct: 678.369.5968
>>>>> Office Main: 678.369.5970
>>>>> Fax: 866.895.8557
>>>>> Mobile: 678.852.4173
>>>>>
>>>>> Sent from my BlackBerry? smartphone with SprintSpeed
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Ted Mittelstaedt <tedm at ipinc.net>
>>>>>
>>>>> Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 16:58:01
>>>>> To: John Brown<john at citylinkfiber.com>
>>>>> Cc: ARIN Discussion List<arin-discuss at arin.net>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Food for thought: IPv4 accountability.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> If people NEED IPv4 after runout (as opposed to merely liking to have
>>>>> some), then a transfer market will
>>>>> exist, and those unused IPv4 numbers of HP and Apple will suddenly
>>>>> have a transferable value - and as long as HP and Apple continue
>>>>> to sit
>>>>> on them, they lose that money.  It's no different than charging them
>>>>> a fee to where they then lose money paying the fee.  Either way,
>>>>> they lose money.  The only difference is who gets the money they
>>>>> lose.
>>>>>
>>>>> Apple and HP only DON'T lose money if a transfer market never forms
>>>>> and that block of numbers never gains value.  In which case nobody
>>>>> will
>>>>> be bugging ARIN to start charging them a fee.
>>>>>
>>>>> Either way, it works the same.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ted
>>>>>
>>>>> John Brown wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> So the challenge for ARIN, is what legal right do they have to
>>>>>> assess a
>>>>>> fee on Apple or HP (to use them as an example here)??
>>>>>>
>>>>>> When Apple or HP got their space in the late 1980's there was no
>>>>>> fee as
>>>>>> part of the "contract".
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: Steve Wagner
>>>>>>> [mailto:stwagner at syringanetworks.net]<stwagner at syringanetworks.net]>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2009 5:38 PM
>>>>>>> To: John Brown; Mike Horwath; Nathaniel B. Lyon
>>>>>>> Cc: ARIN Discussion List
>>>>>>> Subject: RE: [arin-discuss] Food for thought: IPv4 accountability.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If either Apple or HP  corporate network sits behind a NAT
>>>>>>> firewall, they do not need the address space you speak about,
>>>>>>> i.e. 40 million. In this regard may charging those type of
>>>>>>> entities for the address space they use, may result in them
>>>>>>> returning this address space to the allocation pool. This
>>>>>>> would be true for any other end user entity as well that uses
>>>>>>> a NAT type firewall
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>> Steve Wagner
>>>>>>> Vice President of Operations
>>>>>>> Syringa Networks, LLC
>>>>>>> 3795 S Development Ave, Suite 100
>>>>>>> Boise, ID 83705
>>>>>>> Office: 208.229.6104
>>>>>>> Main: 208.229.6100
>>>>>>> Emergency: 1.800.454.7214
>>>>>>> Fax: 208.229.6110
>>>>>>> Email: Stwagner at syringanetworks.net
>>>>>>> Web: www.syringanetworks.net
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Idaho's Premier Fiber Optic Network"
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Privilege and Confidentiality Notice
>>>>>>> The information in this message is intended for the named
>>>>>>> recipients only. It may contain information that is
>>>>>>> privileged, confidential or otherwise protected from
>>>>>>> disclosure. If you are not the intended recipient, you are
>>>>>>> hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution,
>>>>>>> or the taking of any action in reliance on the contents of
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>>>>>>> this e-mail in error, do not print it or disseminate it or
>>>>>>> its contents. In such event, please notify the sender by
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>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net
>>>>>>> [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net]<arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net]>On
>>>>>>> Behalf Of John Brown
>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2009 5:18 PM
>>>>>>> To: Mike Horwath; Nathaniel B. Lyon
>>>>>>> Cc: ARIN Discussion List
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Food for thought: IPv4 accountability.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I think that the other ARIN RIR's do a better job of managing
>>>>>>> the actual
>>>>>>> usage ratios.  Lots of US service providers have space allocated or
>>>>>>> assigned to downstream customers and those customers don't exist
>>>>>>> any
>>>>>>> more.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The cost for provider X to tightly manage their space is
>>>>>>> higher than the
>>>>>>> cost of them just getting new space.  So it doesn't happen.  I
>>>>>>> could
>>>>>>> give multiple specific examples, at the risk of putting a public
>>>>>>> spot
>>>>>>> light on those providers. :|
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I believe that the early end user entities that got gobs of
>>>>>>> space should
>>>>>>> return the space they aren't using.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Does Apple Computer really need a /8 ???
>>>>>>> Does HP really need a /8 ??
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Do both of those entities really need 40 million+ IP addresses ??
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> For the specific issue of why Mr. Horwath can't get space, I
>>>>>>> don't know.
>>>>>>> He fails to articulate specifics and only talks with a broad brush.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I do know the ARIN staff and they are reasonable people doing
>>>>>>> good work
>>>>>>> under the guidelines they have.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If there is some injustice on Mr. Horwath's allocation
>>>>>>> request, I'm sure
>>>>>>> it can be resolved.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So to that end I'll offer a few minutes of my time to privately
>>>>>>> work
>>>>>>> with him on his allocation request and see if it passes
>>>>>>> muster and what
>>>>>>> may need to be done to help it float.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>> From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net
>>>>>>>> [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net]<arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net]>On
>>>>>>>> Behalf Of Mike Horwath
>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2009 3:48 PM
>>>>>>>> To: Nathaniel B. Lyon
>>>>>>>> Cc: ARIN Discussion List
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Food for thought: IPv4 accountability.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hi.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This issue and scare of IPv4 going away, running out of
>>>>>>>> space, I hear rice cakes are tasty - has been going on for
>>>>>>>> way too long.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I started my first ISP in 1993 and was told then that I
>>>>>>>> needed to be stingy with my allocation.  16 years later, same
>>>>>>>> mantra, same boys with their toys who don't want to share the
>>>>>>>> pool.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The issues of accountability go back to the mid/late-1990s
>>>>>>>> when it was posed that companies/institutions/government be
>>>>>>>> held to the same standards as joe schmoe consumer of
>>>>>>>> netblocks.  Search the mailing list archives, I am sure you
>>>>>>>> will find commentary in regular spats.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This isn't going to change, unfortunately.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The old boys club is just that: a club of old boys who have
>>>>>>>> benefits for themselves.  They even have a sign on their
>>>>>>>> clubhouse that states 'No Girlz'.  (the rest of us are the
>>>>>>>> girlz if that wasn't obvious)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> BUT: you too can join the club: just rewind time by about 20
>>>>>>>> years, get in on the ground floor 'IP Address Give Away'
>>>>>>>> stock offering.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Or do what others do, buy larger netblock holding companies:
>>>>>>>> PROFIT
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If I sound a little bitter, I apologize.  The playing field
>>>>>>>> should be level when it comes to this resource.  It never has
>>>>>>>> been.  I don't think it ever will be.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I said it, you read it, I can't take it back.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Mike Horwath      ipHouse - Welcome home!
>>>>>>>> drechsau at iphouse.net
>>>>>>>>         The universe is an island, surrounded by whatever it is
>>>>>>>>         that surrounds universes. - Berkely Fortune
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> ARIN-Discuss
>>>>>>>> You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to
>>>>>>>> the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net).
>>>>>>>> Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:
>>>>>>>> http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss
>>>>>>>> Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> ARIN-Discuss
>>>>>>> You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to
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>>>>>>> Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> ARIN-Discuss
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>>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> ARIN-Discuss
>>>>> You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to
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>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> ARIN-Discuss
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>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> ARIN-Discuss
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> ARIN-Discuss
>>>> You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to
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>>>>
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