[arin-discuss] Food for thought: IPv4 accountability.
kreg roenfeldt
kreg at directcom.com
Wed Jul 22 20:39:16 EDT 2009
Go outside and play.
-=Kreg
Scott Leibrand wrote:
> Jon,
>
> Thanks for the constructive suggestion.
>
> For anyone who is interested in policy development in this area, I
> would highly encourage you to subscribe to the Public Policy Mailing
> List, discuss this and other policy ideas, and make a proposal through
> the Policy Development Process if there appears to be support for an
> idea. Myself or anyone else on the Advisory Council will be happy to
> work with you to assist in the process.
>
> It's also worth noting that the Policy Development Process (PDP),
> Public Policy Mailing List (PPML), and the Public Policy Meetings are
> all open to any interested party, whether or not they're an ARIN
> member or Designated Member Representative. In addition, the members
> of the Advisory Council (which plays a key role in the PDP) and the
> Board of Trustees (which ratifies policies and sets fees, among other
> things) are elected by the membership. We are currently in the
> process of soliciting questions to ask of nominees for either/both
> positions, so if there's an issue you feel strongly about, you should
> make sure the question is asked of candidates so you can vote
> accordingly.
>
> Thanks again,
> Scott
>
> Jon Auer wrote:
>> Who would be in favor of a policy along the lines of the following:
>>
>> ARIN shall not issue any IPv4 Number Resources unless the requesting
>> organization has:
>> 1. A IPv6 subnet properly allocated from ARIN
>> 2. Said IPv6 subnet is announced in the global IPv6 routing table
>> 3. Said IPv6 subnet is visible from a neutral 3rd party's looking
>> glass (routeviews.org or similar)
>> 4. Organization's customers or end users that would normally be
>> assigned a non-RFC1918 IPv4 address are given the option of
>> additionally being assigned a IPv6 subnet from said provider within 12
>> months or the IPv4 Number Resource granted under this policy shall be
>> revoked.
>>
>> I had a IPv6 subnet allocated from ARIN and routed globally though
>> HE.net's tunnel broker within 48 hours.
>> Meeting a policy like that should be easy.
>> Even if you are a large provider 12 months should be enough time to
>> get one customer running with IPv6 to demonstrate token compliance
>> with section 4...
>>
>> On Tue, Jul 21, 2009 at 9:42 PM, <arin-discuss-request at arin.net> wrote:
>>
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>>> Today's Topics:
>>>
>>> 1. Re: Food for thought: IPv4 accountability. (Tony Valenti)
>>>
>>>
>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> Message: 1
>>> Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 21:42:39 -0500
>>> From: Tony Valenti <tony.valenti at powerdnn.com>
>>> To: John Brown <john at citylinkfiber.com>
>>> Cc: arin-discuss at arin.net
>>> Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Food for thought: IPv4 accountability.
>>> Message-ID:
>>> <e82f9b9b0907211942i29d69571v236434239025e04f at mail.gmail.com>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"
>>>
>>> I'm in the same boat as one of the earlier readers mentioned.I think
>>> a big
>>> mistake that ARIN is making is that ARIN incorrectly assumes that we
>>> have
>>> something to do with making IPV6 a reality and managing IPV4 address
>>> space.
>>>
>>> Just recently I called one of our upstream providers (again) and
>>> asked them
>>> when we would be able to use IPV6 addresses. After being escalated
>>> all the
>>> way to to their Level 4 engineers, i was told that they have no
>>> plans to
>>> implement IPV6 which means that if I put any content on an IPV6
>>> address, I
>>> can expect at a minimum, 25% of the US won't have access to it.
>>>
>>> So, assuming that the upstream providers like ours just simply don't
>>> care,
>>> and in a few years there is a black market for IPV4 address space
>>> because
>>> the internet is officially out, what will you do? As a webhosting
>>> company,
>>> we have no choice but to pay whatever the black market price for IPs
>>> is or
>>> go out of business/quit accepting customers.
>>>
>>> If I sound unhappy, it is because I am. ARIN continually emphasizes
>>> the
>>> problem of depleting IPV4 but never offers or enforces anything to
>>> fix the
>>> problem - they just make the current process harder. ARIN is a
>>> doomsday
>>> prophet powerless to change the fate that we all will endure.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Jul 21, 2009 at 9:26 PM, John Brown <john at citylinkfiber.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> I?ll ask the age old question again.
>>>>
>>>> What legal right does ARIN have to tell Apple to do anything? If
>>>> Apple got
>>>> the space pre-ARIN and the rules where different then, what gives
>>>> ARIN the
>>>> ability to enforce rules today.
>>>>
>>>> Its contracts law.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 7/21/09 8:14 PM, "Chris Gotstein" <chris at uplogon.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I would agree. Us small guys don't want to get to a point where
>>>> the big
>>>> guys are holding available IP address space over our heads for a fee.
>>>> Those companies aren't just going to start dealing with every small
>>>> ISP
>>>> that comes along asking for address space.
>>>>
>>>> We've gone through the process of getting our initial IP space and
>>>> also
>>>> requesting additional IP space. We were successful on both attempts
>>>> because we could prove we needed the space. We also have an IPv6
>>>> block
>>>> and already have it implemented on our routers. But at this time, the
>>>> only way you can run IPv6 is dual stack, i don't see us running pure
>>>> IPv6 for a long time to come.
>>>>
>>>> ARIN needs to step in and start dealing with these large, mostly
>>>> unused
>>>> blocks of IP address space. A working group would be a good start, or
>>>> maybe it's just a matter of asking for justification from each of
>>>> these
>>>> companies. ARIN has the right to poll current block holders of
>>>> address
>>>> space on justification, why can't they do the same on these large
>>>> blocks? If HP and Apple can show they are using 80% or more of their
>>>> block, then they can keep it and we move on. If not, then they should
>>>> break up their blocks, and return the un-used space to ARIN.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Chris Gotstein
>>>> Sr Network Engineer
>>>> UP Logon/Computer Connection UP
>>>> 500 N Stephenson Ave
>>>> Iron Mountain, MI 49801
>>>> Phone: 906-774-4847
>>>> Fax: 906-774-0335
>>>> chris at uplogon.com
>>>>
>>>> Kelvin Williams wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Whoa, whoa, whoa.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm sure I represent several others facing the depletion of IPv4. Our
>>>>>
>>>> Broadband division services residential and SMB DOCSIS and DSL
>>>> subscribers.
>>>>
>>>>> In a perfect world we would be servicing savvy subscribers running
>>>>> Linux
>>>>>
>>>> or current versions of Windows that support IPv6, and the majority
>>>> of web
>>>> destinations were running IPv6.
>>>>
>>>>> I can't implement NAT for our subscribers given that NAT can cause
>>>>>
>>>> problems for some of the services (VoIP, VPNs, etc) in use today.
>>>>
>>>>> So, if I'm reading this right, folks like me who are protecting what
>>>>>
>>>> blocks we manage from excess waste and paying for every block, will
>>>> now be
>>>> at the mercy of these /8 holders who may be utilizing a tiny
>>>> portion of the
>>>> blocks they are assigned when the "transfer market" comes into play.
>>>>
>>>>> Lovely, I can't wait until I'm paying $100 a year per IPv4 address
>>>>>
>>>> because they can go for that.
>>>>
>>>>> I think instead of talking on these lists that there should be a
>>>>> steering
>>>>>
>>>> group developed to address the real issues. Forcing Apple, HP and
>>>> the DoD to
>>>> implement IPv6 NOW freeing up those blocks. If they can't, they
>>>> need to pay.
>>>> In my opinion, especially when looking at the DoD most of their
>>>> networks
>>>> aren't accessed by the general public, so they can transition
>>>> versus the
>>>> ISPs of the world dealing with users still running Windows 98.
>>>>
>>>>> Additionally the group could reallocate those big blocks to the
>>>>>
>>>> responsible little guy with the aforementioned issues without the
>>>> establishment of a transfer market, and work to create a series of
>>>> large
>>>> bandwidth IPv4 to IPv6 gateways.
>>>>
>>>>> (All of the above was written after too many beers at the local brew
>>>>>
>>>> pub--if it doesn't make sense to you, it made sense to us)
>>>>
>>>>> Kw
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Kelvin Williams
>>>>> Altus Communications Group, Inc.
>>>>> Office Direct: 678.369.5968
>>>>> Office Main: 678.369.5970
>>>>> Fax: 866.895.8557
>>>>> Mobile: 678.852.4173
>>>>>
>>>>> Sent from my BlackBerry? smartphone with SprintSpeed
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Ted Mittelstaedt <tedm at ipinc.net>
>>>>>
>>>>> Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 16:58:01
>>>>> To: John Brown<john at citylinkfiber.com>
>>>>> Cc: ARIN Discussion List<arin-discuss at arin.net>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Food for thought: IPv4 accountability.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> If people NEED IPv4 after runout (as opposed to merely liking to have
>>>>> some), then a transfer market will
>>>>> exist, and those unused IPv4 numbers of HP and Apple will suddenly
>>>>> have a transferable value - and as long as HP and Apple continue
>>>>> to sit
>>>>> on them, they lose that money. It's no different than charging them
>>>>> a fee to where they then lose money paying the fee. Either way,
>>>>> they lose money. The only difference is who gets the money they
>>>>> lose.
>>>>>
>>>>> Apple and HP only DON'T lose money if a transfer market never forms
>>>>> and that block of numbers never gains value. In which case nobody
>>>>> will
>>>>> be bugging ARIN to start charging them a fee.
>>>>>
>>>>> Either way, it works the same.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ted
>>>>>
>>>>> John Brown wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> So the challenge for ARIN, is what legal right do they have to
>>>>>> assess a
>>>>>> fee on Apple or HP (to use them as an example here)??
>>>>>>
>>>>>> When Apple or HP got their space in the late 1980's there was no
>>>>>> fee as
>>>>>> part of the "contract".
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: Steve Wagner
>>>>>>> [mailto:stwagner at syringanetworks.net]<stwagner at syringanetworks.net]>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2009 5:38 PM
>>>>>>> To: John Brown; Mike Horwath; Nathaniel B. Lyon
>>>>>>> Cc: ARIN Discussion List
>>>>>>> Subject: RE: [arin-discuss] Food for thought: IPv4 accountability.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If either Apple or HP corporate network sits behind a NAT
>>>>>>> firewall, they do not need the address space you speak about,
>>>>>>> i.e. 40 million. In this regard may charging those type of
>>>>>>> entities for the address space they use, may result in them
>>>>>>> returning this address space to the allocation pool. This
>>>>>>> would be true for any other end user entity as well that uses
>>>>>>> a NAT type firewall
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>> Steve Wagner
>>>>>>> Vice President of Operations
>>>>>>> Syringa Networks, LLC
>>>>>>> 3795 S Development Ave, Suite 100
>>>>>>> Boise, ID 83705
>>>>>>> Office: 208.229.6104
>>>>>>> Main: 208.229.6100
>>>>>>> Emergency: 1.800.454.7214
>>>>>>> Fax: 208.229.6110
>>>>>>> Email: Stwagner at syringanetworks.net
>>>>>>> Web: www.syringanetworks.net
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Idaho's Premier Fiber Optic Network"
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Privilege and Confidentiality Notice
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>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net
>>>>>>> [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net]<arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net]>On
>>>>>>> Behalf Of John Brown
>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2009 5:18 PM
>>>>>>> To: Mike Horwath; Nathaniel B. Lyon
>>>>>>> Cc: ARIN Discussion List
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Food for thought: IPv4 accountability.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I think that the other ARIN RIR's do a better job of managing
>>>>>>> the actual
>>>>>>> usage ratios. Lots of US service providers have space allocated or
>>>>>>> assigned to downstream customers and those customers don't exist
>>>>>>> any
>>>>>>> more.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The cost for provider X to tightly manage their space is
>>>>>>> higher than the
>>>>>>> cost of them just getting new space. So it doesn't happen. I
>>>>>>> could
>>>>>>> give multiple specific examples, at the risk of putting a public
>>>>>>> spot
>>>>>>> light on those providers. :|
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I believe that the early end user entities that got gobs of
>>>>>>> space should
>>>>>>> return the space they aren't using.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Does Apple Computer really need a /8 ???
>>>>>>> Does HP really need a /8 ??
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Do both of those entities really need 40 million+ IP addresses ??
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> For the specific issue of why Mr. Horwath can't get space, I
>>>>>>> don't know.
>>>>>>> He fails to articulate specifics and only talks with a broad brush.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I do know the ARIN staff and they are reasonable people doing
>>>>>>> good work
>>>>>>> under the guidelines they have.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If there is some injustice on Mr. Horwath's allocation
>>>>>>> request, I'm sure
>>>>>>> it can be resolved.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So to that end I'll offer a few minutes of my time to privately
>>>>>>> work
>>>>>>> with him on his allocation request and see if it passes
>>>>>>> muster and what
>>>>>>> may need to be done to help it float.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>> From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net
>>>>>>>> [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net]<arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net]>On
>>>>>>>> Behalf Of Mike Horwath
>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2009 3:48 PM
>>>>>>>> To: Nathaniel B. Lyon
>>>>>>>> Cc: ARIN Discussion List
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Food for thought: IPv4 accountability.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hi.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This issue and scare of IPv4 going away, running out of
>>>>>>>> space, I hear rice cakes are tasty - has been going on for
>>>>>>>> way too long.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I started my first ISP in 1993 and was told then that I
>>>>>>>> needed to be stingy with my allocation. 16 years later, same
>>>>>>>> mantra, same boys with their toys who don't want to share the
>>>>>>>> pool.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The issues of accountability go back to the mid/late-1990s
>>>>>>>> when it was posed that companies/institutions/government be
>>>>>>>> held to the same standards as joe schmoe consumer of
>>>>>>>> netblocks. Search the mailing list archives, I am sure you
>>>>>>>> will find commentary in regular spats.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This isn't going to change, unfortunately.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The old boys club is just that: a club of old boys who have
>>>>>>>> benefits for themselves. They even have a sign on their
>>>>>>>> clubhouse that states 'No Girlz'. (the rest of us are the
>>>>>>>> girlz if that wasn't obvious)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> BUT: you too can join the club: just rewind time by about 20
>>>>>>>> years, get in on the ground floor 'IP Address Give Away'
>>>>>>>> stock offering.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Or do what others do, buy larger netblock holding companies:
>>>>>>>> PROFIT
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If I sound a little bitter, I apologize. The playing field
>>>>>>>> should be level when it comes to this resource. It never has
>>>>>>>> been. I don't think it ever will be.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I said it, you read it, I can't take it back.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Mike Horwath ipHouse - Welcome home!
>>>>>>>> drechsau at iphouse.net
>>>>>>>> The universe is an island, surrounded by whatever it is
>>>>>>>> that surrounds universes. - Berkely Fortune
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> ARIN-Discuss
>>>>>>>> You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to
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>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> ARIN-Discuss
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>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> ARIN-Discuss
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>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> ARIN-Discuss
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>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>
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