[arin-discuss] Food for thought: IPv4 accountability.
Joel Jaeggli
joelja at bogus.com
Tue Jul 21 23:25:55 EDT 2009
Tony Valenti wrote:
> Why should I spend the time trying to set up IPV6 servers when the ISPs
> don't care?
That's orthogonal to the observation that was made.
The observation that XO has no IPV6 plans is factually incorrect. They
offer ipv6 service, it has customers.
joel
> On Tue, Jul 21, 2009 at 10:15 PM, Joel Jaeggli <joelja at bogus.com
> <mailto:joelja at bogus.com>> wrote:
>
> You need to find a new sales rep.
>
> as2828 will sell you v6 transit. they have v6 customers, prefixs in the
> routing table, etc.
>
> joel
>
> Kelvin Williams wrote:
> > I have several uplinks to XO. And they have stated they have no IPv6
> > plans to us.
> >
> > Kelvin Williams
> > Altus Communications Group, Inc.
> > Office Direct: 678.369.5968
> > Office Main: 678.369.5970
> > Fax: 866.895.8557
> > Mobile: 678.852.4173
> >
> > Sent from my BlackBerry® smartphone with SprintSpeed
> >
> >
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > *From*: John Brown
> > *Date*: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 20:43:46 -0600
> > *To*: Tony Valenti<tony.valenti at powerdnn.com
> <mailto:tony.valenti at powerdnn.com>>
> > *Subject*: Re: [arin-discuss] Food for thought: IPv4 accountability.
> >
> > Who is that “upstream”???
> >
> > Change providers ??
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On 7/21/09 8:42 PM, "Tony Valenti" <tony.valenti at powerdnn.com
> <mailto:tony.valenti at powerdnn.com>> wrote:
> >
> > I'm in the same boat as one of the earlier readers mentioned.
> > I think a big mistake that ARIN is making is that ARIN incorrectly
> > assumes that we have something to do with making IPV6 a
> reality and
> > managing IPV4 address space.
> >
> > Just recently I called one of our upstream providers (again) and
> > asked them when we would be able to use IPV6 addresses. After
> being
> > escalated all the way to to their Level 4 engineers, i was
> told that
> > they have no plans to implement IPV6 which means that if I put any
> > content on an IPV6 address, I can expect at a minimum, 25% of
> the US
> > won't have access to it.
> >
> > So, assuming that the upstream providers like ours just simply
> don't
> > care, and in a few years there is a black market for IPV4 address
> > space because the internet is officially out, what will you
> do? As
> > a webhosting company, we have no choice but to pay whatever the
> > black market price for IPs is or go out of business/quit accepting
> > customers.
> >
> > If I sound unhappy, it is because I am. ARIN continually
> emphasizes
> > the problem of depleting IPV4 but never offers or enforces
> anything
> > to fix the problem - they just make the current process harder.
> > ARIN is a doomsday prophet powerless to change the fate that
> we all
> > will endure.
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Jul 21, 2009 at 9:26 PM, John Brown
> <john at citylinkfiber.com <mailto:john at citylinkfiber.com>>
> > wrote:
> >
> > I’ll ask the age old question again.
> >
> > What legal right does ARIN have to tell Apple to do anything?
> > If Apple got the space pre-ARIN and the rules where different
> > then, what gives ARIN the ability to enforce rules today.
> >
> > Its contracts law.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On 7/21/09 8:14 PM, "Chris Gotstein" <chris at uplogon.com
> <mailto:chris at uplogon.com>> wrote:
> >
> > I would agree. Us small guys don't want to get to a point
> > where the big
> > guys are holding available IP address space over our heads
> > for a fee.
> > Those companies aren't just going to start dealing with
> > every small ISP
> > that comes along asking for address space.
> >
> > We've gone through the process of getting our initial IP
> > space and also
> > requesting additional IP space. We were successful on
> both
> > attempts
> > because we could prove we needed the space. We also
> have an
> > IPv6 block
> > and already have it implemented on our routers. But
> at this
> > time, the
> > only way you can run IPv6 is dual stack, i don't see us
> > running pure
> > IPv6 for a long time to come.
> >
> > ARIN needs to step in and start dealing with these large,
> > mostly unused
> > blocks of IP address space. A working group would be
> a good
> > start, or
> > maybe it's just a matter of asking for justification from
> > each of these
> > companies. ARIN has the right to poll current block
> holders
> > of address
> > space on justification, why can't they do the same on
> these
> > large
> > blocks? If HP and Apple can show they are using 80%
> or more
> > of their
> > block, then they can keep it and we move on. If not, then
> > they should
> > break up their blocks, and return the un-used space to
> ARIN.
> >
> >
> > --
> > Chris Gotstein
> > Sr Network Engineer
> > UP Logon/Computer Connection UP
> > 500 N Stephenson Ave
> > Iron Mountain, MI 49801
> > Phone: 906-774-4847
> > Fax: 906-774-0335
> > chris at uplogon.com <mailto:chris at uplogon.com>
> >
> > Kelvin Williams wrote:
> > > Whoa, whoa, whoa.
> > >
> > > I'm sure I represent several others facing the
> depletion of
> > IPv4. Our Broadband division services residential and SMB
> > DOCSIS and DSL subscribers.
> > >
> > > In a perfect world we would be servicing savvy
> subscribers
> > running Linux or current versions of Windows that support
> > IPv6, and the majority of web destinations were
> running IPv6.
> > >
> > > I can't implement NAT for our subscribers given that NAT
> > can cause problems for some of the services (VoIP, VPNs,
> > etc) in use today.
> > >
> > > So, if I'm reading this right, folks like me who are
> > protecting what blocks we manage from excess waste and
> > paying for every block, will now be at the mercy of
> these /8
> > holders who may be utilizing a tiny portion of the blocks
> > they are assigned when the "transfer market" comes
> into play.
> > >
> > > Lovely, I can't wait until I'm paying $100 a year
> per IPv4
> > address because they can go for that.
> > >
> > > I think instead of talking on these lists that there
> should
> > be a steering group developed to address the real issues.
> > Forcing Apple, HP and the DoD to implement IPv6 NOW
> freeing
> > up those blocks. If they can't, they need to pay. In my
> > opinion, especially when looking at the DoD most of their
> > networks aren't accessed by the general public, so
> they can
> > transition versus the ISPs of the world dealing with users
> > still running Windows 98.
> > >
> > > Additionally the group could reallocate those big
> blocks to
> > the responsible little guy with the aforementioned issues
> > without the establishment of a transfer market, and
> work to
> > create a series of large bandwidth IPv4 to IPv6 gateways.
> > >
> > > (All of the above was written after too many beers
> at the
> > local brew pub--if it doesn't make sense to you, it made
> > sense to us)
> > >
> > >
> > > Kw
> > >
> > >
> > > Kelvin Williams
> > > Altus Communications Group, Inc.
> > > Office Direct: 678.369.5968
> > > Office Main: 678.369.5970
> > > Fax: 866.895.8557
> > > Mobile: 678.852.4173
> > >
> > > Sent from my BlackBerry® smartphone with SprintSpeed
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Ted Mittelstaedt <tedm at ipinc.net
> <mailto:tedm at ipinc.net>>
> > >
> > > Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 16:58:01
> > > To: John Brown<john at citylinkfiber.com
> <mailto:john at citylinkfiber.com>>
> > > Cc: ARIN Discussion List<arin-discuss at arin.net
> <mailto:arin-discuss at arin.net>>
> > > Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Food for thought: IPv4
> > accountability.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > If people NEED IPv4 after runout (as opposed to merely
> > liking to have
> > > some), then a transfer market will
> > > exist, and those unused IPv4 numbers of HP and Apple
> will
> > suddenly
> > > have a transferable value - and as long as HP and Apple
> > continue to sit
> > > on them, they lose that money. It's no different than
> > charging them
> > > a fee to where they then lose money paying the fee.
> Either
> > way,
> > > they lose money. The only difference is who gets
> the money
> > they lose.
> > >
> > > Apple and HP only DON'T lose money if a transfer market
> > never forms
> > > and that block of numbers never gains value. In
> which case
> > nobody will
> > > be bugging ARIN to start charging them a fee.
> > >
> > > Either way, it works the same.
> > >
> > > Ted
> > >
> > > John Brown wrote:
> > >> So the challenge for ARIN, is what legal right do they
> > have to assess a
> > >> fee on Apple or HP (to use them as an example here)??
> > >>
> > >> When Apple or HP got their space in the late 1980's
> there
> > was no fee as
> > >> part of the "contract".
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>> -----Original Message-----
> > >>> From: Steve Wagner
> [mailto:stwagner at syringanetworks.net
> <mailto:stwagner at syringanetworks.net>]
> > >>> Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2009 5:38 PM
> > >>> To: John Brown; Mike Horwath; Nathaniel B. Lyon
> > >>> Cc: ARIN Discussion List
> > >>> Subject: RE: [arin-discuss] Food for thought: IPv4
> > accountability.
> > >>>
> > >>> If either Apple or HP corporate network sits
> behind a NAT
> > >>> firewall, they do not need the address space you
> speak about,
> > >>> i.e. 40 million. In this regard may charging those
> type of
> > >>> entities for the address space they use, may
> result in them
> > >>> returning this address space to the allocation
> pool. This
> > >>> would be true for any other end user entity as
> well that uses
> > >>> a NAT type firewall
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> Regards,
> > >>> Steve Wagner
> > >>> Vice President of Operations
> > >>> Syringa Networks, LLC
> > >>> 3795 S Development Ave, Suite 100
> > >>> Boise, ID 83705
> > >>> Office: 208.229.6104
> > >>> Main: 208.229.6100
> > >>> Emergency: 1.800.454.7214
> > >>> Fax: 208.229.6110
> > >>> Email: Stwagner at syringanetworks.net
> <mailto:Stwagner at syringanetworks.net>
> > >>> Web: www.syringanetworks.net
> <http://www.syringanetworks.net>
> > <http://www.syringanetworks.net>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> "Idaho's Premier Fiber Optic Network"
> > >>>
> > >>> Privilege and Confidentiality Notice
> > >>> The information in this message is intended for
> the named
> > >>> recipients only. It may contain information that is
> > >>> privileged, confidential or otherwise protected from
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> > >>> hereby notified that any disclosure, copying,
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> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> -----Original Message-----
> > >>> From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net
> <mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net>
> > >>> [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net
> <mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net>] On Behalf Of John
> > Brown
> > >>> Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2009 5:18 PM
> > >>> To: Mike Horwath; Nathaniel B. Lyon
> > >>> Cc: ARIN Discussion List
> > >>> Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Food for thought: IPv4
> > accountability.
> > >>>
> > >>> I think that the other ARIN RIR's do a better job
> of managing
> > >>> the actual
> > >>> usage ratios. Lots of US service providers have space
> > allocated or
> > >>> assigned to downstream customers and those customers
> > don't exist any
> > >>> more.
> > >>>
> > >>> The cost for provider X to tightly manage their
> space is
> > >>> higher than the
> > >>> cost of them just getting new space. So it doesn't
> > happen. I could
> > >>> give multiple specific examples, at the risk of
> putting a
> > public spot
> > >>> light on those providers. :|
> > >>>
> > >>> I believe that the early end user entities that
> got gobs of
> > >>> space should
> > >>> return the space they aren't using.
> > >>>
> > >>> Does Apple Computer really need a /8 ???
> > >>> Does HP really need a /8 ??
> > >>>
> > >>> Do both of those entities really need 40 million+ IP
> > addresses ??
> > >>>
> > >>> For the specific issue of why Mr. Horwath can't
> get space, I
> > >>> don't know.
> > >>> He fails to articulate specifics and only talks with a
> > broad brush.
> > >>>
> > >>> I do know the ARIN staff and they are reasonable
> people doing
> > >>> good work
> > >>> under the guidelines they have.
> > >>>
> > >>> If there is some injustice on Mr. Horwath's allocation
> > >>> request, I'm sure
> > >>> it can be resolved.
> > >>>
> > >>> So to that end I'll offer a few minutes of my time to
> > privately work
> > >>> with him on his allocation request and see if it
> passes
> > >>> muster and what
> > >>> may need to be done to help it float.
> > >>>
> > >>>> -----Original Message-----
> > >>>> From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net
> <mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net>
> > >>>> [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net
> <mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net>] On Behalf Of Mike
> > Horwath
> > >>>> Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2009 3:48 PM
> > >>>> To: Nathaniel B. Lyon
> > >>>> Cc: ARIN Discussion List
> > >>>> Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Food for thought: IPv4
> > accountability.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Hi.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> This issue and scare of IPv4 going away, running
> out of
> > >>>> space, I hear rice cakes are tasty - has been
> going on for
> > >>>> way too long.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> I started my first ISP in 1993 and was told then
> that I
> > >>>> needed to be stingy with my allocation. 16 years
> later,
> > same
> > >>>> mantra, same boys with their toys who don't want to
> > share the pool.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> The issues of accountability go back to the
> mid/late-1990s
> > >>>> when it was posed that
> companies/institutions/government be
> > >>>> held to the same standards as joe schmoe consumer of
> > >>>> netblocks. Search the mailing list archives, I
> am sure you
> > >>>> will find commentary in regular spats.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> This isn't going to change, unfortunately.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> The old boys club is just that: a club of old
> boys who have
> > >>>> benefits for themselves. They even have a sign
> on their
> > >>>> clubhouse that states 'No Girlz'. (the rest of
> us are the
> > >>>> girlz if that wasn't obvious)
> > >>>>
> > >>>> BUT: you too can join the club: just rewind time
> by about 20
> > >>>> years, get in on the ground floor 'IP Address
> Give Away'
> > >>>> stock offering.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Or do what others do, buy larger netblock holding
> > companies: PROFIT
> > >>>>
> > >>>> If I sound a little bitter, I apologize. The
> playing field
> > >>>> should be level when it comes to this resource. It
> > never has
> > >>>> been. I don't think it ever will be.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> I said it, you read it, I can't take it back.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> --
> > >>>> Mike Horwath ipHouse - Welcome home!
> > drechsau at iphouse.net <mailto:drechsau at iphouse.net>
> > >>>> The universe is an island, surrounded by
> > whatever it is
> > >>>> that surrounds universes. - Berkely Fortune
> > >>>>_______________________________________________
> > >>>> ARIN-Discuss
> > >>>> You are receiving this message because you are
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> > >>>>
> > >>>_______________________________________________
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