[arin-discuss] Food for thought: IPv4 accountability.
Keefe John
keefe at techwarepc.com
Tue Jul 21 23:18:55 EDT 2009
Another great example of wasted IP space is the 44 block. Does amateur
radio really need a /8? I'd be surprised if more than a few thousand IP
addresses in this block were in use. I'm a HAM myself and still believe
this is a waste.
>From what I have seen ARIN has been to afraid to even talk about taking IP
space back from the "legacy" holders. I don't believe charging excessive
fees to the huge holders is going to fix the problem either. What's
$100,000 or even $1,000,000 to Apple or HP? Realistically, it would
probably cost them that much to clean up their networks and renumber
anyways.
What Arin needs to do is force these huge holders to give back unused blocks
like the NANP did with telephone number thousand blocks. This is the only
way these large organizations are going to give up the space.
Keefe John
Partner/Network Architect
Techware
N115 W19006 Edison Dr
Germantown WI 53022
T: 262.252.9000
TF: 800.TECHWARE
M: 262.893.9518
---------------------------------
http://www.techwareit.com/
-----Original Message-----
From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net]
On Behalf Of Chris Gotstein
Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2009 9:14 PM
To: kwilliams at altuscgi.com
Cc: arin-discuss at arin.net
Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Food for thought: IPv4 accountability.
I would agree. Us small guys don't want to get to a point where the big
guys are holding available IP address space over our heads for a fee.
Those companies aren't just going to start dealing with every small ISP
that comes along asking for address space.
We've gone through the process of getting our initial IP space and also
requesting additional IP space. We were successful on both attempts
because we could prove we needed the space. We also have an IPv6 block
and already have it implemented on our routers. But at this time, the
only way you can run IPv6 is dual stack, i don't see us running pure
IPv6 for a long time to come.
ARIN needs to step in and start dealing with these large, mostly unused
blocks of IP address space. A working group would be a good start, or
maybe it's just a matter of asking for justification from each of these
companies. ARIN has the right to poll current block holders of address
space on justification, why can't they do the same on these large
blocks? If HP and Apple can show they are using 80% or more of their
block, then they can keep it and we move on. If not, then they should
break up their blocks, and return the un-used space to ARIN.
--
Chris Gotstein
Sr Network Engineer
UP Logon/Computer Connection UP
500 N Stephenson Ave
Iron Mountain, MI 49801
Phone: 906-774-4847
Fax: 906-774-0335
chris at uplogon.com
Kelvin Williams wrote:
> Whoa, whoa, whoa.
>
> I'm sure I represent several others facing the depletion of IPv4. Our
Broadband division services residential and SMB DOCSIS and DSL subscribers.
>
> In a perfect world we would be servicing savvy subscribers running Linux
or current versions of Windows that support IPv6, and the majority of web
destinations were running IPv6.
>
> I can't implement NAT for our subscribers given that NAT can cause
problems for some of the services (VoIP, VPNs, etc) in use today.
>
> So, if I'm reading this right, folks like me who are protecting what
blocks we manage from excess waste and paying for every block, will now be
at the mercy of these /8 holders who may be utilizing a tiny portion of the
blocks they are assigned when the "transfer market" comes into play.
>
> Lovely, I can't wait until I'm paying $100 a year per IPv4 address because
they can go for that.
>
> I think instead of talking on these lists that there should be a steering
group developed to address the real issues. Forcing Apple, HP and the DoD to
implement IPv6 NOW freeing up those blocks. If they can't, they need to pay.
In my opinion, especially when looking at the DoD most of their networks
aren't accessed by the general public, so they can transition versus the
ISPs of the world dealing with users still running Windows 98.
>
> Additionally the group could reallocate those big blocks to the
responsible little guy with the aforementioned issues without the
establishment of a transfer market, and work to create a series of large
bandwidth IPv4 to IPv6 gateways.
>
> (All of the above was written after too many beers at the local brew
pub--if it doesn't make sense to you, it made sense to us)
>
>
> Kw
>
>
> Kelvin Williams
> Altus Communications Group, Inc.
> Office Direct: 678.369.5968
> Office Main: 678.369.5970
> Fax: 866.895.8557
> Mobile: 678.852.4173
>
> Sent from my BlackBerryR smartphone with SprintSpeed
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ted Mittelstaedt <tedm at ipinc.net>
>
> Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 16:58:01
> To: John Brown<john at citylinkfiber.com>
> Cc: ARIN Discussion List<arin-discuss at arin.net>
> Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Food for thought: IPv4 accountability.
>
>
>
>
> If people NEED IPv4 after runout (as opposed to merely liking to have
> some), then a transfer market will
> exist, and those unused IPv4 numbers of HP and Apple will suddenly
> have a transferable value - and as long as HP and Apple continue to sit
> on them, they lose that money. It's no different than charging them
> a fee to where they then lose money paying the fee. Either way,
> they lose money. The only difference is who gets the money they lose.
>
> Apple and HP only DON'T lose money if a transfer market never forms
> and that block of numbers never gains value. In which case nobody will
> be bugging ARIN to start charging them a fee.
>
> Either way, it works the same.
>
> Ted
>
> John Brown wrote:
>> So the challenge for ARIN, is what legal right do they have to assess a
>> fee on Apple or HP (to use them as an example here)??
>>
>> When Apple or HP got their space in the late 1980's there was no fee as
>> part of the "contract".
>>
>>
>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Steve Wagner [mailto:stwagner at syringanetworks.net]
>>> Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2009 5:38 PM
>>> To: John Brown; Mike Horwath; Nathaniel B. Lyon
>>> Cc: ARIN Discussion List
>>> Subject: RE: [arin-discuss] Food for thought: IPv4 accountability.
>>>
>>> If either Apple or HP corporate network sits behind a NAT
>>> firewall, they do not need the address space you speak about,
>>> i.e. 40 million. In this regard may charging those type of
>>> entities for the address space they use, may result in them
>>> returning this address space to the allocation pool. This
>>> would be true for any other end user entity as well that uses
>>> a NAT type firewall
>>>
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Steve Wagner
>>> Vice President of Operations
>>> Syringa Networks, LLC
>>> 3795 S Development Ave, Suite 100
>>> Boise, ID 83705
>>> Office: 208.229.6104
>>> Main: 208.229.6100
>>> Emergency: 1.800.454.7214
>>> Fax: 208.229.6110
>>> Email: Stwagner at syringanetworks.net
>>> Web: www.syringanetworks.net
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> "Idaho's Premier Fiber Optic Network"
>>>
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>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net
>>> [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of John Brown
>>> Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2009 5:18 PM
>>> To: Mike Horwath; Nathaniel B. Lyon
>>> Cc: ARIN Discussion List
>>> Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Food for thought: IPv4 accountability.
>>>
>>> I think that the other ARIN RIR's do a better job of managing
>>> the actual
>>> usage ratios. Lots of US service providers have space allocated or
>>> assigned to downstream customers and those customers don't exist any
>>> more.
>>>
>>> The cost for provider X to tightly manage their space is
>>> higher than the
>>> cost of them just getting new space. So it doesn't happen. I could
>>> give multiple specific examples, at the risk of putting a public spot
>>> light on those providers. :|
>>>
>>> I believe that the early end user entities that got gobs of
>>> space should
>>> return the space they aren't using.
>>>
>>> Does Apple Computer really need a /8 ???
>>> Does HP really need a /8 ??
>>>
>>> Do both of those entities really need 40 million+ IP addresses ??
>>>
>>> For the specific issue of why Mr. Horwath can't get space, I
>>> don't know.
>>> He fails to articulate specifics and only talks with a broad brush.
>>>
>>> I do know the ARIN staff and they are reasonable people doing
>>> good work
>>> under the guidelines they have.
>>>
>>> If there is some injustice on Mr. Horwath's allocation
>>> request, I'm sure
>>> it can be resolved.
>>>
>>> So to that end I'll offer a few minutes of my time to privately work
>>> with him on his allocation request and see if it passes
>>> muster and what
>>> may need to be done to help it float.
>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net
>>>> [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Mike Horwath
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2009 3:48 PM
>>>> To: Nathaniel B. Lyon
>>>> Cc: ARIN Discussion List
>>>> Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Food for thought: IPv4 accountability.
>>>>
>>>> Hi.
>>>>
>>>> This issue and scare of IPv4 going away, running out of
>>>> space, I hear rice cakes are tasty - has been going on for
>>>> way too long.
>>>>
>>>> I started my first ISP in 1993 and was told then that I
>>>> needed to be stingy with my allocation. 16 years later, same
>>>> mantra, same boys with their toys who don't want to share the pool.
>>>>
>>>> The issues of accountability go back to the mid/late-1990s
>>>> when it was posed that companies/institutions/government be
>>>> held to the same standards as joe schmoe consumer of
>>>> netblocks. Search the mailing list archives, I am sure you
>>>> will find commentary in regular spats.
>>>>
>>>> This isn't going to change, unfortunately.
>>>>
>>>> The old boys club is just that: a club of old boys who have
>>>> benefits for themselves. They even have a sign on their
>>>> clubhouse that states 'No Girlz'. (the rest of us are the
>>>> girlz if that wasn't obvious)
>>>>
>>>> BUT: you too can join the club: just rewind time by about 20
>>>> years, get in on the ground floor 'IP Address Give Away'
>>>> stock offering.
>>>>
>>>> Or do what others do, buy larger netblock holding companies: PROFIT
>>>>
>>>> If I sound a little bitter, I apologize. The playing field
>>>> should be level when it comes to this resource. It never has
>>>> been. I don't think it ever will be.
>>>>
>>>> I said it, you read it, I can't take it back.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Mike Horwath ipHouse - Welcome home! drechsau at iphouse.net
>>>> The universe is an island, surrounded by whatever it is
>>>> that surrounds universes. - Berkely Fortune
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>
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