[arin-discuss] Food for thought: IPv4 accountability.
Bob Roswell
broswell at syssrc.com
Tue Jul 21 22:51:21 EDT 2009
Tony has it right. We are multi-homed with Verizon, Level 3, and
Comcast. None of them are willing to provision us with Native IPv6. At
best, they offer IPv6 by encapsulating it in a IPv4 tunnel, and getting
that done has been next to impossible.
Bob Roswell
broswell at syssrc.com
From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net
[mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Tony Valenti
Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2009 10:43 PM
To: John Brown
Cc: arin-discuss at arin.net
Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Food for thought: IPv4 accountability.
I'm in the same boat as one of the earlier readers mentioned.
I think a big mistake that ARIN is making is that ARIN incorrectly
assumes that we have something to do with making IPV6 a reality and
managing IPV4 address space.
Just recently I called one of our upstream providers (again) and asked
them when we would be able to use IPV6 addresses. After being escalated
all the way to to their Level 4 engineers, i was told that they have no
plans to implement IPV6 which means that if I put any content on an IPV6
address, I can expect at a minimum, 25% of the US won't have access to
it.
So, assuming that the upstream providers like ours just simply don't
care, and in a few years there is a black market for IPV4 address space
because the internet is officially out, what will you do? As a
webhosting company, we have no choice but to pay whatever the black
market price for IPs is or go out of business/quit accepting customers.
If I sound unhappy, it is because I am. ARIN continually emphasizes the
problem of depleting IPV4 but never offers or enforces anything to fix
the problem - they just make the current process harder. ARIN is a
doomsday prophet powerless to change the fate that we all will endure.
On Tue, Jul 21, 2009 at 9:26 PM, John Brown <john at citylinkfiber.com>
wrote:
I'll ask the age old question again.
What legal right does ARIN have to tell Apple to do anything? If Apple
got the space pre-ARIN and the rules where different then, what gives
ARIN the ability to enforce rules today.
Its contracts law.
On 7/21/09 8:14 PM, "Chris Gotstein" <chris at uplogon.com> wrote:
I would agree. Us small guys don't want to get to a point where
the big
guys are holding available IP address space over our heads for a
fee.
Those companies aren't just going to start dealing with every
small ISP
that comes along asking for address space.
We've gone through the process of getting our initial IP space
and also
requesting additional IP space. We were successful on both
attempts
because we could prove we needed the space. We also have an
IPv6 block
and already have it implemented on our routers. But at this
time, the
only way you can run IPv6 is dual stack, i don't see us running
pure
IPv6 for a long time to come.
ARIN needs to step in and start dealing with these large, mostly
unused
blocks of IP address space. A working group would be a good
start, or
maybe it's just a matter of asking for justification from each
of these
companies. ARIN has the right to poll current block holders of
address
space on justification, why can't they do the same on these
large
blocks? If HP and Apple can show they are using 80% or more of
their
block, then they can keep it and we move on. If not, then they
should
break up their blocks, and return the un-used space to ARIN.
--
Chris Gotstein
Sr Network Engineer
UP Logon/Computer Connection UP
500 N Stephenson Ave
Iron Mountain, MI 49801
Phone: 906-774-4847
Fax: 906-774-0335
chris at uplogon.com
Kelvin Williams wrote:
> Whoa, whoa, whoa.
>
> I'm sure I represent several others facing the depletion of
IPv4. Our Broadband division services residential and SMB DOCSIS and DSL
subscribers.
>
> In a perfect world we would be servicing savvy subscribers
running Linux or current versions of Windows that support IPv6, and the
majority of web destinations were running IPv6.
>
> I can't implement NAT for our subscribers given that NAT can
cause problems for some of the services (VoIP, VPNs, etc) in use today.
>
> So, if I'm reading this right, folks like me who are
protecting what blocks we manage from excess waste and paying for every
block, will now be at the mercy of these /8 holders who may be utilizing
a tiny portion of the blocks they are assigned when the "transfer
market" comes into play.
>
> Lovely, I can't wait until I'm paying $100 a year per IPv4
address because they can go for that.
>
> I think instead of talking on these lists that there should be
a steering group developed to address the real issues. Forcing Apple, HP
and the DoD to implement IPv6 NOW freeing up those blocks. If they
can't, they need to pay. In my opinion, especially when looking at the
DoD most of their networks aren't accessed by the general public, so
they can transition versus the ISPs of the world dealing with users
still running Windows 98.
>
> Additionally the group could reallocate those big blocks to
the responsible little guy with the aforementioned issues without the
establishment of a transfer market, and work to create a series of large
bandwidth IPv4 to IPv6 gateways.
>
> (All of the above was written after too many beers at the
local brew pub--if it doesn't make sense to you, it made sense to us)
>
>
> Kw
>
>
> Kelvin Williams
> Altus Communications Group, Inc.
> Office Direct: 678.369.5968
> Office Main: 678.369.5970
> Fax: 866.895.8557
> Mobile: 678.852.4173
>
> Sent from my BlackBerry(r) smartphone with SprintSpeed
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ted Mittelstaedt <tedm at ipinc.net>
>
> Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 16:58:01
> To: John Brown<john at citylinkfiber.com>
> Cc: ARIN Discussion List<arin-discuss at arin.net>
> Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Food for thought: IPv4
accountability.
>
>
>
>
> If people NEED IPv4 after runout (as opposed to merely liking
to have
> some), then a transfer market will
> exist, and those unused IPv4 numbers of HP and Apple will
suddenly
> have a transferable value - and as long as HP and Apple
continue to sit
> on them, they lose that money. It's no different than
charging them
> a fee to where they then lose money paying the fee. Either
way,
> they lose money. The only difference is who gets the money
they lose.
>
> Apple and HP only DON'T lose money if a transfer market never
forms
> and that block of numbers never gains value. In which case
nobody will
> be bugging ARIN to start charging them a fee.
>
> Either way, it works the same.
>
> Ted
>
> John Brown wrote:
>> So the challenge for ARIN, is what legal right do they have
to assess a
>> fee on Apple or HP (to use them as an example here)??
>>
>> When Apple or HP got their space in the late 1980's there was
no fee as
>> part of the "contract".
>>
>>
>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Steve Wagner [mailto:stwagner at syringanetworks.net]
>>> Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2009 5:38 PM
>>> To: John Brown; Mike Horwath; Nathaniel B. Lyon
>>> Cc: ARIN Discussion List
>>> Subject: RE: [arin-discuss] Food for thought: IPv4
accountability.
>>>
>>> If either Apple or HP corporate network sits behind a NAT
>>> firewall, they do not need the address space you speak
about,
>>> i.e. 40 million. In this regard may charging those type of
>>> entities for the address space they use, may result in them
>>> returning this address space to the allocation pool. This
>>> would be true for any other end user entity as well that
uses
>>> a NAT type firewall
>>>
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Steve Wagner
>>> Vice President of Operations
>>> Syringa Networks, LLC
>>> 3795 S Development Ave, Suite 100
>>> Boise, ID 83705
>>> Office: 208.229.6104
>>> Main: 208.229.6100
>>> Emergency: 1.800.454.7214
>>> Fax: 208.229.6110
>>> Email: Stwagner at syringanetworks.net
>>> Web: www.syringanetworks.net
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> "Idaho's Premier Fiber Optic Network"
>>>
>>> Privilege and Confidentiality Notice
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>>> privileged, confidential or otherwise protected from
>>> disclosure. If you are not the intended recipient, you are
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>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net
>>> [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of John
Brown
>>> Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2009 5:18 PM
>>> To: Mike Horwath; Nathaniel B. Lyon
>>> Cc: ARIN Discussion List
>>> Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Food for thought: IPv4
accountability.
>>>
>>> I think that the other ARIN RIR's do a better job of
managing
>>> the actual
>>> usage ratios. Lots of US service providers have space
allocated or
>>> assigned to downstream customers and those customers don't
exist any
>>> more.
>>>
>>> The cost for provider X to tightly manage their space is
>>> higher than the
>>> cost of them just getting new space. So it doesn't happen.
I could
>>> give multiple specific examples, at the risk of putting a
public spot
>>> light on those providers. :|
>>>
>>> I believe that the early end user entities that got gobs of
>>> space should
>>> return the space they aren't using.
>>>
>>> Does Apple Computer really need a /8 ???
>>> Does HP really need a /8 ??
>>>
>>> Do both of those entities really need 40 million+ IP
addresses ??
>>>
>>> For the specific issue of why Mr. Horwath can't get space, I
>>> don't know.
>>> He fails to articulate specifics and only talks with a broad
brush.
>>>
>>> I do know the ARIN staff and they are reasonable people
doing
>>> good work
>>> under the guidelines they have.
>>>
>>> If there is some injustice on Mr. Horwath's allocation
>>> request, I'm sure
>>> it can be resolved.
>>>
>>> So to that end I'll offer a few minutes of my time to
privately work
>>> with him on his allocation request and see if it passes
>>> muster and what
>>> may need to be done to help it float.
>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net
>>>> [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Mike
Horwath
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2009 3:48 PM
>>>> To: Nathaniel B. Lyon
>>>> Cc: ARIN Discussion List
>>>> Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Food for thought: IPv4
accountability.
>>>>
>>>> Hi.
>>>>
>>>> This issue and scare of IPv4 going away, running out of
>>>> space, I hear rice cakes are tasty - has been going on for
>>>> way too long.
>>>>
>>>> I started my first ISP in 1993 and was told then that I
>>>> needed to be stingy with my allocation. 16 years later,
same
>>>> mantra, same boys with their toys who don't want to share
the pool.
>>>>
>>>> The issues of accountability go back to the mid/late-1990s
>>>> when it was posed that companies/institutions/government be
>>>> held to the same standards as joe schmoe consumer of
>>>> netblocks. Search the mailing list archives, I am sure you
>>>> will find commentary in regular spats.
>>>>
>>>> This isn't going to change, unfortunately.
>>>>
>>>> The old boys club is just that: a club of old boys who have
>>>> benefits for themselves. They even have a sign on their
>>>> clubhouse that states 'No Girlz'. (the rest of us are the
>>>> girlz if that wasn't obvious)
>>>>
>>>> BUT: you too can join the club: just rewind time by about
20
>>>> years, get in on the ground floor 'IP Address Give Away'
>>>> stock offering.
>>>>
>>>> Or do what others do, buy larger netblock holding
companies: PROFIT
>>>>
>>>> If I sound a little bitter, I apologize. The playing field
>>>> should be level when it comes to this resource. It never
has
>>>> been. I don't think it ever will be.
>>>>
>>>> I said it, you read it, I can't take it back.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Mike Horwath ipHouse - Welcome home!
drechsau at iphouse.net
>>>> The universe is an island, surrounded by whatever
it is
>>>> that surrounds universes. - Berkely Fortune
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> ARIN-Discuss
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>>>>
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