[arin-discuss] Food for thought: IPv4 accountability.

Chris Gotstein chris at uplogon.com
Tue Jul 21 22:51:37 EDT 2009


I signed up to "beta test" IPv6 on Qwest's network about 3 months ago. 
I'm still waiting to connect to them.  Thank god for HE's IPv6.

-- 
Chris Gotstein
Sr Network Engineer
UP Logon/Computer Connection UP
500 N Stephenson Ave
Iron Mountain, MI 49801
Phone: 906-774-4847
Fax: 906-774-0335
chris at uplogon.com

Kelvin Williams wrote:
> I have several uplinks to XO. And they have stated they have no IPv6 
> plans to us.
> 
> Kelvin Williams
> Altus Communications Group, Inc.
> Office Direct: 678.369.5968
> Office Main: 678.369.5970
> Fax: 866.895.8557
> Mobile: 678.852.4173
> 
> Sent from my BlackBerry® smartphone with SprintSpeed
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From*: John Brown
> *Date*: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 20:43:46 -0600
> *To*: Tony Valenti<tony.valenti at powerdnn.com>
> *Subject*: Re: [arin-discuss] Food for thought: IPv4 accountability.
> 
> Who is that “upstream”???
> 
> Change providers ??
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On 7/21/09 8:42 PM, "Tony Valenti" <tony.valenti at powerdnn.com> wrote:
> 
>     I'm in the same boat as one of the earlier readers mentioned.
>     I think a big mistake that ARIN is making is that ARIN incorrectly
>     assumes that we have something to do with making IPV6 a reality and
>     managing IPV4 address space.
> 
>     Just recently I called one of our upstream providers (again) and
>     asked them when we would be able to use IPV6 addresses.  After being
>     escalated all the way to to their Level 4 engineers, i was told that
>     they have no plans to implement IPV6 which means that if I put any
>     content on an IPV6 address, I can expect at a minimum, 25% of the US
>     won't have access to it.
> 
>     So, assuming that the upstream providers like ours just simply don't
>     care, and in a few years there is a black market for IPV4 address
>     space because the internet is officially out, what will you do?  As
>     a webhosting company, we have no choice but to pay whatever the
>     black market price for IPs is or go out of business/quit accepting
>     customers.
> 
>     If I sound unhappy, it is because I am.  ARIN continually emphasizes
>     the problem of depleting IPV4 but never offers or enforces anything
>     to fix the problem - they just make the current process harder.
>      ARIN is a doomsday prophet powerless to change the fate that we all
>     will endure.
> 
> 
>     On Tue, Jul 21, 2009 at 9:26 PM, John Brown <john at citylinkfiber.com>
>     wrote:
> 
>         I’ll ask the age old question again.
> 
>         What legal right does ARIN have to tell Apple to do anything?
>          If Apple got the space pre-ARIN and the rules where different
>         then, what gives ARIN the ability to  enforce rules today.
> 
>         Its contracts law.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>         On 7/21/09 8:14 PM, "Chris Gotstein" <chris at uplogon.com> wrote:
> 
>             I would agree.  Us small guys don't want to get to a point
>             where the big
>             guys are holding available IP address space over our heads
>             for a fee.
>             Those companies aren't just going to start dealing with
>             every small ISP
>             that comes along asking for address space.
> 
>             We've gone through the process of getting our initial IP
>             space and also
>             requesting additional IP space.  We were successful on both
>             attempts
>             because we could prove we needed the space.  We also have an
>             IPv6 block
>             and already have it implemented on our routers.  But at this
>             time, the
>             only way you can run IPv6 is dual stack, i don't see us
>             running pure
>             IPv6 for a long time to come.
> 
>             ARIN needs to step in and start dealing with these large,
>             mostly unused
>             blocks of IP address space.  A working group would be a good
>             start, or
>             maybe it's just a matter of asking for justification from
>             each of these
>             companies.  ARIN has the right to poll current block holders
>             of address
>             space on justification, why can't they do the same on these
>             large
>             blocks?  If HP and Apple can show they are using 80% or more
>             of their
>             block, then they can keep it and we move on.  If not, then
>             they should
>             break up their blocks, and return the un-used space to ARIN.
> 
> 
>             --
>             Chris Gotstein
>             Sr Network Engineer
>             UP Logon/Computer Connection UP
>             500 N Stephenson Ave
>             Iron Mountain, MI 49801
>             Phone: 906-774-4847
>             Fax: 906-774-0335
>             chris at uplogon.com
> 
>             Kelvin Williams wrote:
>             >  Whoa, whoa, whoa.
>             >
>             >  I'm sure I represent several others facing the depletion
>             of IPv4. Our Broadband division services residential and SMB
>             DOCSIS and DSL subscribers.
>             >
>             >  In a perfect world we would be servicing savvy subscribers
>             running Linux or current versions of Windows that support
>             IPv6, and the majority of web destinations were running IPv6.
>             >
>             >  I can't implement NAT for our subscribers given that NAT
>             can cause problems for some of the services (VoIP, VPNs,
>             etc) in use today.
>             >
>             >  So, if I'm reading this right, folks like me who are
>             protecting what blocks we manage from excess waste and
>             paying for every block, will now be at the mercy of these /8
>             holders who may be utilizing a tiny portion of the blocks
>             they are assigned when the "transfer market" comes into play.
>             >
>             >  Lovely, I can't wait until I'm paying $100 a year per IPv4
>             address because they can go for that.
>             >
>             >  I think instead of talking on these lists that there
>             should be a steering group developed to address the real
>             issues. Forcing Apple, HP and the DoD to implement IPv6 NOW
>             freeing up those blocks. If they can't, they need to pay. In
>             my opinion, especially when looking at the DoD most of their
>             networks aren't accessed by the general public, so they can
>             transition versus the ISPs of the world dealing with users
>             still running Windows 98.
>             >
>             >  Additionally the group could reallocate those big blocks
>             to the responsible little guy with the aforementioned issues
>             without the establishment of a transfer market, and work to
>             create a series of large bandwidth IPv4 to IPv6 gateways.
>             >
>             >  (All of the above was written after too many beers at the
>             local brew pub--if it doesn't make sense to you, it made
>             sense to us)
>             >
>             >
>             >  Kw
>             >
>             >
>             >  Kelvin Williams
>             >  Altus Communications Group, Inc.
>             >  Office Direct: 678.369.5968
>             >  Office Main: 678.369.5970
>             >  Fax: 866.895.8557
>             >  Mobile: 678.852.4173
>             >
>             >  Sent from my BlackBerry® smartphone with SprintSpeed
>             >
>             >
>             >
>             >  -----Original Message-----
>             >  From: Ted Mittelstaedt <tedm at ipinc.net>
>             >
>             >  Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 16:58:01
>             >  To: John Brown<john at citylinkfiber.com>
>             >  Cc: ARIN Discussion List<arin-discuss at arin.net>
>             >  Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Food for thought: IPv4
>             accountability.
>             >
>             >
>             >
>             >
>             >  If people NEED IPv4 after runout (as opposed to merely
>             liking to have
>             >  some), then a transfer market will
>             >  exist, and those unused IPv4 numbers of HP and Apple will
>             suddenly
>             >  have a transferable value - and as long as HP and Apple
>             continue to sit
>             >  on them, they lose that money.  It's no different than
>             charging them
>             >  a fee to where they then lose money paying the fee.
>              Either way,
>             >  they lose money.  The only difference is who gets the
>             money they lose.
>             >
>             >  Apple and HP only DON'T lose money if a transfer market
>             never forms
>             >  and that block of numbers never gains value.  In which
>             case nobody will
>             >  be bugging ARIN to start charging them a fee.
>             >
>             >  Either way, it works the same.
>             >
>             >  Ted
>             >
>             >  John Brown wrote:
>             > > So the challenge for ARIN, is what legal right do they
>             have to assess a
>             > > fee on Apple or HP (to use them as an example here)??
>             > >
>             > > When Apple or HP got their space in the late 1980's there
>             was no fee as
>             > > part of the "contract".
>             > >
>             > >
>             > >
>             > >> -----Original Message-----
>             > >> From: Steve Wagner [mailto:stwagner at syringanetworks.net]
>             > >> Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2009 5:38 PM
>             > >> To: John Brown; Mike Horwath; Nathaniel B. Lyon
>             > >> Cc: ARIN Discussion List
>             > >> Subject: RE: [arin-discuss] Food for thought: IPv4
>             accountability.
>             > >>
>             > >> If either Apple or HP  corporate network sits behind a NAT
>             > >> firewall, they do not need the address space you speak
>             about,
>             > >> i.e. 40 million. In this regard may charging those type of
>             > >> entities for the address space they use, may result in them
>             > >> returning this address space to the allocation pool. This
>             > >> would be true for any other end user entity as well that
>             uses
>             > >> a NAT type firewall
>             > >>
>             > >>
>             > >> Regards,
>             > >> Steve Wagner
>             > >> Vice President of Operations
>             > >> Syringa Networks, LLC
>             > >> 3795 S Development Ave, Suite 100
>             > >> Boise, ID 83705
>             > >> Office: 208.229.6104
>             > >> Main: 208.229.6100
>             > >> Emergency: 1.800.454.7214
>             > >> Fax: 208.229.6110
>             > >> Email: Stwagner at syringanetworks.net
>             > >> Web: www.syringanetworks.net
>             <http://www.syringanetworks.net>
>             > >>
>             > >>
>             > >>
>             > >>
>             > >>
>             > >>
>             > >> "Idaho's Premier Fiber Optic Network"
>             > >>
>             > >> Privilege and Confidentiality Notice
>             > >> The information in this message is intended for the named
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>             > >>
>             > >>
>             > >> -----Original Message-----
>             > >> From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net
>             > >> [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of John
>             Brown
>             > >> Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2009 5:18 PM
>             > >> To: Mike Horwath; Nathaniel B. Lyon
>             > >> Cc: ARIN Discussion List
>             > >> Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Food for thought: IPv4
>             accountability.
>             > >>
>             > >> I think that the other ARIN RIR's do a better job of
>             managing
>             > >> the actual
>             > >> usage ratios.  Lots of US service providers have space
>             allocated or
>             > >> assigned to downstream customers and those customers
>             don't exist any
>             > >> more.
>             > >>
>             > >> The cost for provider X to tightly manage their space is
>             > >> higher than the
>             > >> cost of them just getting new space.  So it doesn't
>             happen.  I could
>             > >> give multiple specific examples, at the risk of putting
>             a public spot
>             > >> light on those providers. :|
>             > >>
>             > >> I believe that the early end user entities that got gobs of
>             > >> space should
>             > >> return the space they aren't using.  
>             > >>
>             > >> Does Apple Computer really need a /8 ???
>             > >> Does HP really need a /8 ??
>             > >>
>             > >> Do both of those entities really need 40 million+ IP
>             addresses ??
>             > >>
>             > >> For the specific issue of why Mr. Horwath can't get space, I
>             > >> don't know.
>             > >> He fails to articulate specifics and only talks with a
>             broad brush.
>             > >>
>             > >> I do know the ARIN staff and they are reasonable people
>             doing
>             > >> good work
>             > >> under the guidelines they have.
>             > >>
>             > >> If there is some injustice on Mr. Horwath's allocation
>             > >> request, I'm sure
>             > >> it can be resolved.
>             > >>
>             > >> So to that end I'll offer a few minutes of my time to
>             privately work
>             > >> with him on his allocation request and see if it passes
>             > >> muster and what
>             > >> may need to be done to help it float.
>             > >>
>             > >>> -----Original Message-----
>             > >>> From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net
>             > >>> [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of
>             Mike Horwath
>             > >>> Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2009 3:48 PM
>             > >>> To: Nathaniel B. Lyon
>             > >>> Cc: ARIN Discussion List
>             > >>> Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Food for thought: IPv4
>             accountability.
>             > >>>
>             > >>> Hi.
>             > >>>
>             > >>> This issue and scare of IPv4 going away, running out of
>             > >>> space, I hear rice cakes are tasty - has been going on for
>             > >>> way too long.
>             > >>>
>             > >>> I started my first ISP in 1993 and was told then that I
>             > >>> needed to be stingy with my allocation.  16 years
>             later, same
>             > >>> mantra, same boys with their toys who don't want to
>             share the pool.
>             > >>>
>             > >>> The issues of accountability go back to the mid/late-1990s
>             > >>> when it was posed that companies/institutions/government be
>             > >>> held to the same standards as joe schmoe consumer of
>             > >>> netblocks.  Search the mailing list archives, I am sure you
>             > >>> will find commentary in regular spats.
>             > >>>
>             > >>> This isn't going to change, unfortunately.
>             > >>>
>             > >>> The old boys club is just that: a club of old boys who have
>             > >>> benefits for themselves.  They even have a sign on their
>             > >>> clubhouse that states 'No Girlz'.  (the rest of us are the
>             > >>> girlz if that wasn't obvious)
>             > >>>
>             > >>> BUT: you too can join the club: just rewind time by
>             about 20
>             > >>> years, get in on the ground floor 'IP Address Give Away'
>             > >>> stock offering.
>             > >>>
>             > >>> Or do what others do, buy larger netblock holding
>             companies:  PROFIT
>             > >>>
>             > >>> If I sound a little bitter, I apologize.  The playing field
>             > >>> should be level when it comes to this resource.  It
>             never has
>             > >>> been.  I don't think it ever will be.
>             > >>>
>             > >>> I said it, you read it, I can't take it back.
>             > >>>
>             > >>> --
>             > >>> Mike Horwath      ipHouse - Welcome home!
>                   drechsau at iphouse.net
>             > >>>         The universe is an island, surrounded by
>             whatever it is
>             > >>>         that surrounds universes. - Berkely Fortune
>             > >>>_______________________________________________
>             > >>> ARIN-Discuss
>             > >>> You are receiving this message because you are
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>             > >>> Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:
>             > >>> http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss
>             > >>> Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues.
>             > >>>
>             > >>_______________________________________________
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