[arin-discuss] Food for thought: IPv4 accountability.
John Brown
john at citylinkfiber.com
Tue Jul 21 22:47:55 EDT 2009
Then why does ARIN allocate them IPv6 space??
I suspect that one stick could be. If you don¹t start providing IPv6
transit NOW-ish, we won¹t let you have any more IPv4 space.
On 7/21/09 8:45 PM, "Kelvin Williams" <kwilliams at altuscgi.com> wrote:
> I have several uplinks to XO. And they have stated they have no IPv6 plans to
> us.
>
> Kelvin WilliamsAltus Communications Group, Inc.Office Direct:
> 678.369.5968Office Main: 678.369.5970Fax: 866.895.8557Mobile: 678.852.4173Sent
> from my BlackBerry® smartphone with SprintSpeed
>
>
> From: John Brown
> Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 20:43:46 -0600
> To: Tony Valenti<tony.valenti at powerdnn.com>
> Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Food for thought: IPv4 accountability.
> Who is that ³upstream²???
>
> Change providers ??
>
>
>
>
> On 7/21/09 8:42 PM, "Tony Valenti" <tony.valenti at powerdnn.com> wrote:
>
>> I'm in the same boat as one of the earlier readers mentioned.
>> I think a big mistake that ARIN is making is that ARIN incorrectly assumes
>> that we have something to do with making IPV6 a reality and managing IPV4
>> address space.
>>
>> Just recently I called one of our upstream providers (again) and asked them
>> when we would be able to use IPV6 addresses. After being escalated all the
>> way to to their Level 4 engineers, i was told that they have no plans to
>> implement IPV6 which means that if I put any content on an IPV6 address, I
>> can expect at a minimum, 25% of the US won't have access to it.
>>
>> So, assuming that the upstream providers like ours just simply don't care,
>> and in a few years there is a black market for IPV4 address space because the
>> internet is officially out, what will you do? As a webhosting company, we
>> have no choice but to pay whatever the black market price for IPs is or go
>> out of business/quit accepting customers.
>>
>> If I sound unhappy, it is because I am. ARIN continually emphasizes the
>> problem of depleting IPV4 but never offers or enforces anything to fix the
>> problem - they just make the current process harder. ARIN is a doomsday
>> prophet powerless to change the fate that we all will endure.
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Jul 21, 2009 at 9:26 PM, John Brown <john at citylinkfiber.com> wrote:
>>> I¹ll ask the age old question again.
>>>
>>> What legal right does ARIN have to tell Apple to do anything? If Apple got
>>> the space pre-ARIN and the rules where different then, what gives ARIN the
>>> ability to enforce rules today.
>>>
>>> Its contracts law.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 7/21/09 8:14 PM, "Chris Gotstein" <chris at uplogon.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I would agree. Us small guys don't want to get to a point where the big
>>>> guys are holding available IP address space over our heads for a fee.
>>>> Those companies aren't just going to start dealing with every small ISP
>>>> that comes along asking for address space.
>>>>
>>>> We've gone through the process of getting our initial IP space and also
>>>> requesting additional IP space. We were successful on both attempts
>>>> because we could prove we needed the space. We also have an IPv6 block
>>>> and already have it implemented on our routers. But at this time, the
>>>> only way you can run IPv6 is dual stack, i don't see us running pure
>>>> IPv6 for a long time to come.
>>>>
>>>> ARIN needs to step in and start dealing with these large, mostly unused
>>>> blocks of IP address space. A working group would be a good start, or
>>>> maybe it's just a matter of asking for justification from each of these
>>>> companies. ARIN has the right to poll current block holders of address
>>>> space on justification, why can't they do the same on these large
>>>> blocks? If HP and Apple can show they are using 80% or more of their
>>>> block, then they can keep it and we move on. If not, then they should
>>>> break up their blocks, and return the un-used space to ARIN.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Chris Gotstein
>>>> Sr Network Engineer
>>>> UP Logon/Computer Connection UP
>>>> 500 N Stephenson Ave
>>>> Iron Mountain, MI 49801
>>>> Phone: 906-774-4847
>>>> Fax: 906-774-0335
>>>> chris at uplogon.com
>>>>
>>>> Kelvin Williams wrote:
>>>>> > Whoa, whoa, whoa.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > I'm sure I represent several others facing the depletion of IPv4. Our
>>>>> Broadband division services residential and SMB DOCSIS and DSL
>>>>> subscribers.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > In a perfect world we would be servicing savvy subscribers running
>>>>> Linux or current versions of Windows that support IPv6, and the majority
>>>>> of web destinations were running IPv6.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > I can't implement NAT for our subscribers given that NAT can cause
>>>>> problems for some of the services (VoIP, VPNs, etc) in use today.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > So, if I'm reading this right, folks like me who are protecting what
>>>>> blocks we manage from excess waste and paying for every block, will now be
>>>>> at the mercy of these /8 holders who may be utilizing a tiny portion of
>>>>> the blocks they are assigned when the "transfer market" comes into play.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Lovely, I can't wait until I'm paying $100 a year per IPv4 address
>>>>> because they can go for that.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > I think instead of talking on these lists that there should be a
>>>>> steering group developed to address the real issues. Forcing Apple, HP and
>>>>> the DoD to implement IPv6 NOW freeing up those blocks. If they can't, they
>>>>> need to pay. In my opinion, especially when looking at the DoD most of
>>>>> their networks aren't accessed by the general public, so they can
>>>>> transition versus the ISPs of the world dealing with users still running
>>>>> Windows 98.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Additionally the group could reallocate those big blocks to the
>>>>> responsible little guy with the aforementioned issues without the
>>>>> establishment of a transfer market, and work to create a series of large
>>>>> bandwidth IPv4 to IPv6 gateways.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > (All of the above was written after too many beers at the local brew
>>>>> pub--if it doesn't make sense to you, it made sense to us)
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Kw
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Kelvin Williams
>>>>> > Altus Communications Group, Inc.
>>>>> > Office Direct: 678.369.5968
>>>>> > Office Main: 678.369.5970
>>>>> > Fax: 866.895.8557
>>>>> > Mobile: 678.852.4173
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Sent from my BlackBerry® smartphone with SprintSpeed
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> > -----Original Message-----
>>>>> > From: Ted Mittelstaedt <tedm at ipinc.net>
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 16:58:01
>>>>> > To: John Brown<john at citylinkfiber.com>
>>>>> > Cc: ARIN Discussion List<arin-discuss at arin.net>
>>>>> > Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Food for thought: IPv4 accountability.
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> > If people NEED IPv4 after runout (as opposed to merely liking to have
>>>>> > some), then a transfer market will
>>>>> > exist, and those unused IPv4 numbers of HP and Apple will suddenly
>>>>> > have a transferable value - and as long as HP and Apple continue to sit
>>>>> > on them, they lose that money. It's no different than charging them
>>>>> > a fee to where they then lose money paying the fee. Either way,
>>>>> > they lose money. The only difference is who gets the money they lose.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Apple and HP only DON'T lose money if a transfer market never forms
>>>>> > and that block of numbers never gains value. In which case nobody will
>>>>> > be bugging ARIN to start charging them a fee.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Either way, it works the same.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Ted
>>>>> >
>>>>> > John Brown wrote:
>>>>>> >> So the challenge for ARIN, is what legal right do they have to assess
a
>>>>>> >> fee on Apple or HP (to use them as an example here)??
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> When Apple or HP got their space in the late 1980's there was no fee
as
>>>>>> >> part of the "contract".
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>> >>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> >>> From: Steve Wagner [mailto:stwagner at syringanetworks.net]
>>>>>>> >>> Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2009 5:38 PM
>>>>>>> >>> To: John Brown; Mike Horwath; Nathaniel B. Lyon
>>>>>>> >>> Cc: ARIN Discussion List
>>>>>>> >>> Subject: RE: [arin-discuss] Food for thought: IPv4 accountability.
>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>> >>> If either Apple or HP corporate network sits behind a NAT
>>>>>>> >>> firewall, they do not need the address space you speak about,
>>>>>>> >>> i.e. 40 million. In this regard may charging those type of
>>>>>>> >>> entities for the address space they use, may result in them
>>>>>>> >>> returning this address space to the allocation pool. This
>>>>>>> >>> would be true for any other end user entity as well that uses
>>>>>>> >>> a NAT type firewall
>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>> >>> Regards,
>>>>>>> >>> Steve Wagner
>>>>>>> >>> Vice President of Operations
>>>>>>> >>> Syringa Networks, LLC
>>>>>>> >>> 3795 S Development Ave, Suite 100
>>>>>>> >>> Boise, ID 83705
>>>>>>> >>> Office: 208.229.6104
>>>>>>> >>> Main: 208.229.6100
>>>>>>> >>> Emergency: 1.800.454.7214
>>>>>>> >>> Fax: 208.229.6110
>>>>>>> >>> Email: Stwagner at syringanetworks.net
>>>>>>> >>> Web: www.syringanetworks.net <http://www.syringanetworks.net>
>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>> >>> "Idaho's Premier Fiber Optic Network"
>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>> >>> Privilege and Confidentiality Notice
>>>>>>> >>> The information in this message is intended for the named
>>>>>>> >>> recipients only. It may contain information that is
>>>>>>> >>> privileged, confidential or otherwise protected from
>>>>>>> >>> disclosure. If you are not the intended recipient, you are
>>>>>>> >>> hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution,
>>>>>>> >>> or the taking of any action in reliance on the contents of
>>>>>>> >>> this message is strictly prohibited. If you have received
>>>>>>> >>> this e-mail in error, do not print it or disseminate it or
>>>>>>> >>> its contents. In such event, please notify the sender by
>>>>>>> >>> return e-mail and delete the e-mail file immediately
>>>>>>> >>> thereafter. Thank you.
>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>> >>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> >>> From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net
>>>>>>> >>> [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of John Brown
>>>>>>> >>> Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2009 5:18 PM
>>>>>>> >>> To: Mike Horwath; Nathaniel B. Lyon
>>>>>>> >>> Cc: ARIN Discussion List
>>>>>>> >>> Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Food for thought: IPv4 accountability.
>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>> >>> I think that the other ARIN RIR's do a better job of managing
>>>>>>> >>> the actual
>>>>>>> >>> usage ratios. Lots of US service providers have space allocated or
>>>>>>> >>> assigned to downstream customers and those customers don't exist
any
>>>>>>> >>> more.
>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>> >>> The cost for provider X to tightly manage their space is
>>>>>>> >>> higher than the
>>>>>>> >>> cost of them just getting new space. So it doesn't happen. I
>>>>>>> could
>>>>>>> >>> give multiple specific examples, at the risk of putting a public
spot
>>>>>>> >>> light on those providers. :|
>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>> >>> I believe that the early end user entities that got gobs of
>>>>>>> >>> space should
>>>>>>> >>> return the space they aren't using.
>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>> >>> Does Apple Computer really need a /8 ???
>>>>>>> >>> Does HP really need a /8 ??
>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>> >>> Do both of those entities really need 40 million+ IP addresses ??
>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>> >>> For the specific issue of why Mr. Horwath can't get space, I
>>>>>>> >>> don't know.
>>>>>>> >>> He fails to articulate specifics and only talks with a broad brush.
>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>> >>> I do know the ARIN staff and they are reasonable people doing
>>>>>>> >>> good work
>>>>>>> >>> under the guidelines they have.
>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>> >>> If there is some injustice on Mr. Horwath's allocation
>>>>>>> >>> request, I'm sure
>>>>>>> >>> it can be resolved.
>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>> >>> So to that end I'll offer a few minutes of my time to privately
work
>>>>>>> >>> with him on his allocation request and see if it passes
>>>>>>> >>> muster and what
>>>>>>> >>> may need to be done to help it float.
>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>>> >>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>> >>>> From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net
>>>>>>>> >>>> [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Mike Horwath
>>>>>>>> >>>> Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2009 3:48 PM
>>>>>>>> >>>> To: Nathaniel B. Lyon
>>>>>>>> >>>> Cc: ARIN Discussion List
>>>>>>>> >>>> Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Food for thought: IPv4
>>>>>>>> accountability.
>>>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>>>> >>>> Hi.
>>>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>>>> >>>> This issue and scare of IPv4 going away, running out of
>>>>>>>> >>>> space, I hear rice cakes are tasty - has been going on for
>>>>>>>> >>>> way too long.
>>>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>>>> >>>> I started my first ISP in 1993 and was told then that I
>>>>>>>> >>>> needed to be stingy with my allocation. 16 years later, same
>>>>>>>> >>>> mantra, same boys with their toys who don't want to share the
pool.
>>>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>>>> >>>> The issues of accountability go back to the mid/late-1990s
>>>>>>>> >>>> when it was posed that companies/institutions/government be
>>>>>>>> >>>> held to the same standards as joe schmoe consumer of
>>>>>>>> >>>> netblocks. Search the mailing list archives, I am sure you
>>>>>>>> >>>> will find commentary in regular spats.
>>>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>>>> >>>> This isn't going to change, unfortunately.
>>>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>>>> >>>> The old boys club is just that: a club of old boys who have
>>>>>>>> >>>> benefits for themselves. They even have a sign on their
>>>>>>>> >>>> clubhouse that states 'No Girlz'. (the rest of us are the
>>>>>>>> >>>> girlz if that wasn't obvious)
>>>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>>>> >>>> BUT: you too can join the club: just rewind time by about 20
>>>>>>>> >>>> years, get in on the ground floor 'IP Address Give Away'
>>>>>>>> >>>> stock offering.
>>>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>>>> >>>> Or do what others do, buy larger netblock holding companies:
>>>>>>>> PROFIT
>>>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>>>> >>>> If I sound a little bitter, I apologize. The playing field
>>>>>>>> >>>> should be level when it comes to this resource. It never has
>>>>>>>> >>>> been. I don't think it ever will be.
>>>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>>>> >>>> I said it, you read it, I can't take it back.
>>>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>>>> >>>> --
>>>>>>>> >>>> Mike Horwath ipHouse - Welcome home!
>>>>>>>> drechsau at iphouse.net
>>>>>>>> >>>> The universe is an island, surrounded by whatever it is
>>>>>>>> >>>> that surrounds universes. - Berkely Fortune
>>>>>>>> >>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> >>>> ARIN-Discuss
>>>>>>>> >>>> You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to
>>>>>>>> >>>> the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net).
>>>>>>>> >>>> Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:
>>>>>>>> >>>> http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss
>>>>>>>> >>>> Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues.
>>>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>>> >>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>>> >>> ARIN-Discuss
>>>>>>> >>> You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to
>>>>>>> >>> the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net).
>>>>>>> >>> Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:
>>>>>>> >>> http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss
>>>>>>> >>> Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues.
>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>_______________________________________________
>>>>>> >> ARIN-Discuss
>>>>>> >> You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to
>>>>>> >> the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net).
>>>>>> >> Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:
>>>>>> >> http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss
>>>>>> >> Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues.
>>>>> >
>>>>> >_______________________________________________
>>>>> > ARIN-Discuss
>>>>> > You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to
>>>>> > the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net).
>>>>> > Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:
>>>>> > http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss
>>>>> > Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues.
>>>>> >_______________________________________________
>>>>> > ARIN-Discuss
>>>>> > You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to
>>>>> > the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net).
>>>>> > Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:
>>>>> > http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss
>>>>> > Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues.
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> ARIN-Discuss
>>>> You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to
>>>> the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net).
>>>> Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:
>>>> http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss
>>>> Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> ARIN-Discuss
>>> You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to
>>> the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net).
>>> Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:
>>> http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss
>>> Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues.
>>
>>
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://lists.arin.net/pipermail/arin-discuss/attachments/20090721/83e898ec/attachment.html>
More information about the ARIN-discuss
mailing list