[arin-discuss] Food for thought: IPv4 accountability.

Tue Jul 21 22:44:26 EDT 2009

Cox Communications.  I don't have much of a choice in upstream providers.

On Tue, Jul 21, 2009 at 9:43 PM, John Brown <john at citylinkfiber.com> wrote:

>  Who is that “upstream”???
>
> Change providers ??
>
>
>
>
>
> On 7/21/09 8:42 PM, "Tony Valenti" <tony.valenti at powerdnn.com> wrote:
>
> I'm in the same boat as one of the earlier readers mentioned.
> I think a big mistake that ARIN is making is that ARIN incorrectly assumes
> that we have something to do with making IPV6 a reality and managing IPV4
> address space.
>
> Just recently I called one of our upstream providers (again) and asked them
> when we would be able to use IPV6 addresses.  After being escalated all the
> way to to their Level 4 engineers, i was told that they have no plans to
> implement IPV6 which means that if I put any content on an IPV6 address, I
> can expect at a minimum, 25% of the US won't have access to it.
>
> So, assuming that the upstream providers like ours just simply don't care,
> and in a few years there is a black market for IPV4 address space because
> the internet is officially out, what will you do?  As a webhosting company,
> we have no choice but to pay whatever the black market price for IPs is or
> go out of business/quit accepting customers.
>
> If I sound unhappy, it is because I am.  ARIN continually emphasizes the
> problem of depleting IPV4 but never offers or enforces anything to fix the
> problem - they just make the current process harder.  ARIN is a doomsday
> prophet powerless to change the fate that we all will endure.
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 21, 2009 at 9:26 PM, John Brown <john at citylinkfiber.com>
> wrote:
>
> I’ll ask the age old question again.
>
> What legal right does ARIN have to tell Apple to do anything?  If Apple got
> the space pre-ARIN and the rules where different then, what gives ARIN the
> ability to  enforce rules today.
>
> Its contracts law.
>
>
>
>
>
> On 7/21/09 8:14 PM, "Chris Gotstein" <chris at uplogon.com> wrote:
>
> I would agree.  Us small guys don't want to get to a point where the big
> guys are holding available IP address space over our heads for a fee.
> Those companies aren't just going to start dealing with every small ISP
> that comes along asking for address space.
>
> We've gone through the process of getting our initial IP space and also
> requesting additional IP space.  We were successful on both attempts
> because we could prove we needed the space.  We also have an IPv6 block
> and already have it implemented on our routers.  But at this time, the
> only way you can run IPv6 is dual stack, i don't see us running pure
> IPv6 for a long time to come.
>
> ARIN needs to step in and start dealing with these large, mostly unused
> blocks of IP address space.  A working group would be a good start, or
> maybe it's just a matter of asking for justification from each of these
> companies.  ARIN has the right to poll current block holders of address
> space on justification, why can't they do the same on these large
> blocks?  If HP and Apple can show they are using 80% or more of their
> block, then they can keep it and we move on.  If not, then they should
> break up their blocks, and return the un-used space to ARIN.
>
>
> --
> Chris Gotstein
> Sr Network Engineer
> UP Logon/Computer Connection UP
> 500 N Stephenson Ave
> Iron Mountain, MI 49801
> Phone: 906-774-4847
> Fax: 906-774-0335
> chris at uplogon.com
>
> Kelvin Williams wrote:
> > Whoa, whoa, whoa.
> >
> > I'm sure I represent several others facing the depletion of IPv4. Our
> Broadband division services residential and SMB DOCSIS and DSL subscribers.
> >
> > In a perfect world we would be servicing savvy subscribers running Linux
> or current versions of Windows that support IPv6, and the majority of web
> destinations were running IPv6.
> >
> > I can't implement NAT for our subscribers given that NAT can cause
> problems for some of the services (VoIP, VPNs, etc) in use today.
> >
> > So, if I'm reading this right, folks like me who are protecting what
> blocks we manage from excess waste and paying for every block, will now be
> at the mercy of these /8 holders who may be utilizing a tiny portion of the
> blocks they are assigned when the "transfer market" comes into play.
> >
> > Lovely, I can't wait until I'm paying $100 a year per IPv4 address
> because they can go for that.
> >
> > I think instead of talking on these lists that there should be a steering
> group developed to address the real issues. Forcing Apple, HP and the DoD to
> implement IPv6 NOW freeing up those blocks. If they can't, they need to pay.
> In my opinion, especially when looking at the DoD most of their networks
> aren't accessed by the general public, so they can transition versus the
> ISPs of the world dealing with users still running Windows 98.
> >
> > Additionally the group could reallocate those big blocks to the
> responsible little guy with the aforementioned issues without the
> establishment of a transfer market, and work to create a series of large
> bandwidth IPv4 to IPv6 gateways.
> >
> > (All of the above was written after too many beers at the local brew
> pub--if it doesn't make sense to you, it made sense to us)
> >
> >
> > Kw
> >
> >
> > Kelvin Williams
> > Altus Communications Group, Inc.
> > Office Direct: 678.369.5968
> > Office Main: 678.369.5970
> > Fax: 866.895.8557
> > Mobile: 678.852.4173
> >
> > Sent from my BlackBerry® smartphone with SprintSpeed
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Ted Mittelstaedt <tedm at ipinc.net>
> >
> > Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 16:58:01
> > To: John Brown<john at citylinkfiber.com>
> > Cc: ARIN Discussion List<arin-discuss at arin.net>
> > Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Food for thought: IPv4 accountability.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > If people NEED IPv4 after runout (as opposed to merely liking to have
> > some), then a transfer market will
> > exist, and those unused IPv4 numbers of HP and Apple will suddenly
> > have a transferable value - and as long as HP and Apple continue to sit
> > on them, they lose that money.  It's no different than charging them
> > a fee to where they then lose money paying the fee.  Either way,
> > they lose money.  The only difference is who gets the money they lose.
> >
> > Apple and HP only DON'T lose money if a transfer market never forms
> > and that block of numbers never gains value.  In which case nobody will
> > be bugging ARIN to start charging them a fee.
> >
> > Either way, it works the same.
> >
> > Ted
> >
> > John Brown wrote:
> >> So the challenge for ARIN, is what legal right do they have to assess a
> >> fee on Apple or HP (to use them as an example here)??
> >>
> >> When Apple or HP got their space in the late 1980's there was no fee as
> >> part of the "contract".
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: Steve Wagner [mailto:stwagner at syringanetworks.net]<stwagner at syringanetworks.net]>
> >>> Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2009 5:38 PM
> >>> To: John Brown; Mike Horwath; Nathaniel B. Lyon
> >>> Cc: ARIN Discussion List
> >>> Subject: RE: [arin-discuss] Food for thought: IPv4 accountability.
> >>>
> >>> If either Apple or HP  corporate network sits behind a NAT
> >>> firewall, they do not need the address space you speak about,
> >>> i.e. 40 million. In this regard may charging those type of
> >>> entities for the address space they use, may result in them
> >>> returning this address space to the allocation pool. This
> >>> would be true for any other end user entity as well that uses
> >>> a NAT type firewall
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Regards,
> >>> Steve Wagner
> >>> Vice President of Operations
> >>> Syringa Networks, LLC
> >>> 3795 S Development Ave, Suite 100
> >>> Boise, ID 83705
> >>> Office: 208.229.6104
> >>> Main: 208.229.6100
> >>> Emergency: 1.800.454.7214
> >>> Fax: 208.229.6110
> >>> Email: Stwagner at syringanetworks.net
> >>> Web: www.syringanetworks.net <http://www.syringanetworks.net><http://www.syringanetworks.net>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> "Idaho's Premier Fiber Optic Network"
> >>>
> >>> Privilege and Confidentiality Notice
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> >>>
> >>>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net
> >>> [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net]<arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net]>On Behalf Of John Brown
> >>> Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2009 5:18 PM
> >>> To: Mike Horwath; Nathaniel B. Lyon
> >>> Cc: ARIN Discussion List
> >>> Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Food for thought: IPv4 accountability.
> >>>
> >>> I think that the other ARIN RIR's do a better job of managing
> >>> the actual
> >>> usage ratios.  Lots of US service providers have space allocated or
> >>> assigned to downstream customers and those customers don't exist any
> >>> more.
> >>>
> >>> The cost for provider X to tightly manage their space is
> >>> higher than the
> >>> cost of them just getting new space.  So it doesn't happen.  I could
> >>> give multiple specific examples, at the risk of putting a public spot
> >>> light on those providers. :|
> >>>
> >>> I believe that the early end user entities that got gobs of
> >>> space should
> >>> return the space they aren't using.
> >>>
> >>> Does Apple Computer really need a /8 ???
> >>> Does HP really need a /8 ??
> >>>
> >>> Do both of those entities really need 40 million+ IP addresses ??
> >>>
> >>> For the specific issue of why Mr. Horwath can't get space, I
> >>> don't know.
> >>> He fails to articulate specifics and only talks with a broad brush.
> >>>
> >>> I do know the ARIN staff and they are reasonable people doing
> >>> good work
> >>> under the guidelines they have.
> >>>
> >>> If there is some injustice on Mr. Horwath's allocation
> >>> request, I'm sure
> >>> it can be resolved.
> >>>
> >>> So to that end I'll offer a few minutes of my time to privately work
> >>> with him on his allocation request and see if it passes
> >>> muster and what
> >>> may need to be done to help it float.
> >>>
> >>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>> From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net
> >>>> [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net]<arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net]>On Behalf Of Mike Horwath
> >>>> Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2009 3:48 PM
> >>>> To: Nathaniel B. Lyon
> >>>> Cc: ARIN Discussion List
> >>>> Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Food for thought: IPv4 accountability.
> >>>>
> >>>> Hi.
> >>>>
> >>>> This issue and scare of IPv4 going away, running out of
> >>>> space, I hear rice cakes are tasty - has been going on for
> >>>> way too long.
> >>>>
> >>>> I started my first ISP in 1993 and was told then that I
> >>>> needed to be stingy with my allocation.  16 years later, same
> >>>> mantra, same boys with their toys who don't want to share the pool.
> >>>>
> >>>> The issues of accountability go back to the mid/late-1990s
> >>>> when it was posed that companies/institutions/government be
> >>>> held to the same standards as joe schmoe consumer of
> >>>> netblocks.  Search the mailing list archives, I am sure you
> >>>> will find commentary in regular spats.
> >>>>
> >>>> This isn't going to change, unfortunately.
> >>>>
> >>>> The old boys club is just that: a club of old boys who have
> >>>> benefits for themselves.  They even have a sign on their
> >>>> clubhouse that states 'No Girlz'.  (the rest of us are the
> >>>> girlz if that wasn't obvious)
> >>>>
> >>>> BUT: you too can join the club: just rewind time by about 20
> >>>> years, get in on the ground floor 'IP Address Give Away'
> >>>> stock offering.
> >>>>
> >>>> Or do what others do, buy larger netblock holding companies:  PROFIT
> >>>>
> >>>> If I sound a little bitter, I apologize.  The playing field
> >>>> should be level when it comes to this resource.  It never has
> >>>> been.  I don't think it ever will be.
> >>>>
> >>>> I said it, you read it, I can't take it back.
> >>>>
> >>>> --
> >>>> Mike Horwath      ipHouse - Welcome home!       drechsau at iphouse.net
> >>>>         The universe is an island, surrounded by whatever it is
> >>>>         that surrounds universes. - Berkely Fortune
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> ARIN-Discuss
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> >>>>
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