[arin-discuss] Food for thought: IPv4 accountability.

John Brown john at citylinkfiber.com
Tue Jul 21 22:43:46 EDT 2009 

Who is that ³upstream²???

Change providers ??




On 7/21/09 8:42 PM, "Tony Valenti" <tony.valenti at powerdnn.com> wrote:

> I'm in the same boat as one of the earlier readers mentioned.
> I think a big mistake that ARIN is making is that ARIN incorrectly assumes
> that we have something to do with making IPV6 a reality and managing IPV4
> address space.
> 
> Just recently I called one of our upstream providers (again) and asked them
> when we would be able to use IPV6 addresses.  After being escalated all the
> way to to their Level 4 engineers, i was told that they have no plans to
> implement IPV6 which means that if I put any content on an IPV6 address, I can
> expect at a minimum, 25% of the US won't have access to it.
> 
> So, assuming that the upstream providers like ours just simply don't care, and
> in a few years there is a black market for IPV4 address space because the
> internet is officially out, what will you do?  As a webhosting company, we
> have no choice but to pay whatever the black market price for IPs is or go out
> of business/quit accepting customers.
> 
> If I sound unhappy, it is because I am.  ARIN continually emphasizes the
> problem of depleting IPV4 but never offers or enforces anything to fix the
> problem - they just make the current process harder.  ARIN is a doomsday
> prophet powerless to change the fate that we all will endure.
> 
> 
> On Tue, Jul 21, 2009 at 9:26 PM, John Brown <john at citylinkfiber.com> wrote:
>> I¹ll ask the age old question again.
>> 
>> What legal right does ARIN have to tell Apple to do anything?  If Apple got
>> the space pre-ARIN and the rules where different then, what gives ARIN the
>> ability to  enforce rules today.
>> 
>> Its contracts law.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On 7/21/09 8:14 PM, "Chris Gotstein" <chris at uplogon.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> I would agree.  Us small guys don't want to get to a point where the big
>>> guys are holding available IP address space over our heads for a fee.
>>> Those companies aren't just going to start dealing with every small ISP
>>> that comes along asking for address space.
>>> 
>>> We've gone through the process of getting our initial IP space and also
>>> requesting additional IP space.  We were successful on both attempts
>>> because we could prove we needed the space.  We also have an IPv6 block
>>> and already have it implemented on our routers.  But at this time, the
>>> only way you can run IPv6 is dual stack, i don't see us running pure
>>> IPv6 for a long time to come.
>>> 
>>> ARIN needs to step in and start dealing with these large, mostly unused
>>> blocks of IP address space.  A working group would be a good start, or
>>> maybe it's just a matter of asking for justification from each of these
>>> companies.  ARIN has the right to poll current block holders of address
>>> space on justification, why can't they do the same on these large
>>> blocks?  If HP and Apple can show they are using 80% or more of their
>>> block, then they can keep it and we move on.  If not, then they should
>>> break up their blocks, and return the un-used space to ARIN.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> --
>>> Chris Gotstein
>>> Sr Network Engineer
>>> UP Logon/Computer Connection UP
>>> 500 N Stephenson Ave
>>> Iron Mountain, MI 49801
>>> Phone: 906-774-4847
>>> Fax: 906-774-0335
>>> chris at uplogon.com
>>> 
>>> Kelvin Williams wrote:
>>>> > Whoa, whoa, whoa.
>>>> >
>>>> > I'm sure I represent several others facing the depletion of IPv4. Our
>>>> Broadband division services residential and SMB DOCSIS and DSL subscribers.
>>>> >
>>>> > In a perfect world we would be servicing savvy subscribers running Linux
>>>> or current versions of Windows that support IPv6, and the majority of web
>>>> destinations were running IPv6.
>>>> >
>>>> > I can't implement NAT for our subscribers given that NAT can cause
>>>> problems for some of the services (VoIP, VPNs, etc) in use today.
>>>> >
>>>> > So, if I'm reading this right, folks like me who are protecting what
>>>> blocks we manage from excess waste and paying for every block, will now be
>>>> at the mercy of these /8 holders who may be utilizing a tiny portion of the
>>>> blocks they are assigned when the "transfer market" comes into play.
>>>> >
>>>> > Lovely, I can't wait until I'm paying $100 a year per IPv4 address
>>>> because they can go for that.
>>>> >
>>>> > I think instead of talking on these lists that there should be a steering
>>>> group developed to address the real issues. Forcing Apple, HP and the DoD
>>>> to implement IPv6 NOW freeing up those blocks. If they can't, they need to
>>>> pay. In my opinion, especially when looking at the DoD most of their
>>>> networks aren't accessed by the general public, so they can transition
>>>> versus the ISPs of the world dealing with users still running Windows 98.
>>>> >
>>>> > Additionally the group could reallocate those big blocks to the
>>>> responsible little guy with the aforementioned issues without the
>>>> establishment of a transfer market, and work to create a series of large
>>>> bandwidth IPv4 to IPv6 gateways.
>>>> >
>>>> > (All of the above was written after too many beers at the local brew
>>>> pub--if it doesn't make sense to you, it made sense to us)
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > Kw
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > Kelvin Williams
>>>> > Altus Communications Group, Inc.
>>>> > Office Direct: 678.369.5968
>>>> > Office Main: 678.369.5970
>>>> > Fax: 866.895.8557
>>>> > Mobile: 678.852.4173
>>>> >
>>>> > Sent from my BlackBerry® smartphone with SprintSpeed
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > -----Original Message-----
>>>> > From: Ted Mittelstaedt <tedm at ipinc.net>
>>>> >
>>>> > Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 16:58:01
>>>> > To: John Brown<john at citylinkfiber.com>
>>>> > Cc: ARIN Discussion List<arin-discuss at arin.net>
>>>> > Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Food for thought: IPv4 accountability.
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > If people NEED IPv4 after runout (as opposed to merely liking to have
>>>> > some), then a transfer market will
>>>> > exist, and those unused IPv4 numbers of HP and Apple will suddenly
>>>> > have a transferable value - and as long as HP and Apple continue to sit
>>>> > on them, they lose that money.  It's no different than charging them
>>>> > a fee to where they then lose money paying the fee.  Either way,
>>>> > they lose money.  The only difference is who gets the money they lose.
>>>> >
>>>> > Apple and HP only DON'T lose money if a transfer market never forms
>>>> > and that block of numbers never gains value.  In which case nobody will
>>>> > be bugging ARIN to start charging them a fee.
>>>> >
>>>> > Either way, it works the same.
>>>> >
>>>> > Ted
>>>> >
>>>> > John Brown wrote:
>>>>> >> So the challenge for ARIN, is what legal right do they have to assess a
>>>>> >> fee on Apple or HP (to use them as an example here)??
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> When Apple or HP got their space in the late 1980's there was no fee as
>>>>> >> part of the "contract".
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> 
>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> >>> From: Steve Wagner [mailto:stwagner at syringanetworks.net]
>>>>>> >>> Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2009 5:38 PM
>>>>>> >>> To: John Brown; Mike Horwath; Nathaniel B. Lyon
>>>>>> >>> Cc: ARIN Discussion List
>>>>>> >>> Subject: RE: [arin-discuss] Food for thought: IPv4 accountability.
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>> If either Apple or HP  corporate network sits behind a NAT
>>>>>> >>> firewall, they do not need the address space you speak about,
>>>>>> >>> i.e. 40 million. In this regard may charging those type of
>>>>>> >>> entities for the address space they use, may result in them
>>>>>> >>> returning this address space to the allocation pool. This
>>>>>> >>> would be true for any other end user entity as well that uses
>>>>>> >>> a NAT type firewall
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>> Regards,
>>>>>> >>> Steve Wagner
>>>>>> >>> Vice President of Operations
>>>>>> >>> Syringa Networks, LLC
>>>>>> >>> 3795 S Development Ave, Suite 100
>>>>>> >>> Boise, ID 83705
>>>>>> >>> Office: 208.229.6104
>>>>>> >>> Main: 208.229.6100
>>>>>> >>> Emergency: 1.800.454.7214
>>>>>> >>> Fax: 208.229.6110
>>>>>> >>> Email: Stwagner at syringanetworks.net
>>>>>> >>> Web: www.syringanetworks.net <http://www.syringanetworks.net>
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>> "Idaho's Premier Fiber Optic Network"
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>> Privilege and Confidentiality Notice
>>>>>> >>> The information in this message is intended for the named
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>>>>>> >>> disclosure. If you are not the intended recipient, you are
>>>>>> >>> hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution,
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>>>>>> >>> thereafter. Thank you.
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> >>> From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net
>>>>>> >>> [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of John Brown
>>>>>> >>> Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2009 5:18 PM
>>>>>> >>> To: Mike Horwath; Nathaniel B. Lyon
>>>>>> >>> Cc: ARIN Discussion List
>>>>>> >>> Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Food for thought: IPv4 accountability.
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>> I think that the other ARIN RIR's do a better job of managing
>>>>>> >>> the actual
>>>>>> >>> usage ratios.  Lots of US service providers have space allocated or
>>>>>> >>> assigned to downstream customers and those customers don't exist any
>>>>>> >>> more.
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>> The cost for provider X to tightly manage their space is
>>>>>> >>> higher than the
>>>>>> >>> cost of them just getting new space.  So it doesn't happen.  I could
>>>>>> >>> give multiple specific examples, at the risk of putting a public spot
>>>>>> >>> light on those providers. :|
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>> I believe that the early end user entities that got gobs of
>>>>>> >>> space should
>>>>>> >>> return the space they aren't using.  
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>> Does Apple Computer really need a /8 ???
>>>>>> >>> Does HP really need a /8 ??
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>> Do both of those entities really need 40 million+ IP addresses ??
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>> For the specific issue of why Mr. Horwath can't get space, I
>>>>>> >>> don't know.
>>>>>> >>> He fails to articulate specifics and only talks with a broad brush.
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>> I do know the ARIN staff and they are reasonable people doing
>>>>>> >>> good work
>>>>>> >>> under the guidelines they have.
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>> If there is some injustice on Mr. Horwath's allocation
>>>>>> >>> request, I'm sure
>>>>>> >>> it can be resolved.
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>> So to that end I'll offer a few minutes of my time to privately work
>>>>>> >>> with him on his allocation request and see if it passes
>>>>>> >>> muster and what
>>>>>> >>> may need to be done to help it float.
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>> >>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> >>>> From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net
>>>>>>> >>>> [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Mike Horwath
>>>>>>> >>>> Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2009 3:48 PM
>>>>>>> >>>> To: Nathaniel B. Lyon
>>>>>>> >>>> Cc: ARIN Discussion List
>>>>>>> >>>> Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Food for thought: IPv4 accountability.
>>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>>> >>>> Hi.
>>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>>> >>>> This issue and scare of IPv4 going away, running out of
>>>>>>> >>>> space, I hear rice cakes are tasty - has been going on for
>>>>>>> >>>> way too long.
>>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>>> >>>> I started my first ISP in 1993 and was told then that I
>>>>>>> >>>> needed to be stingy with my allocation.  16 years later, same
>>>>>>> >>>> mantra, same boys with their toys who don't want to share the pool.
>>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>>> >>>> The issues of accountability go back to the mid/late-1990s
>>>>>>> >>>> when it was posed that companies/institutions/government be
>>>>>>> >>>> held to the same standards as joe schmoe consumer of
>>>>>>> >>>> netblocks.  Search the mailing list archives, I am sure you
>>>>>>> >>>> will find commentary in regular spats.
>>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>>> >>>> This isn't going to change, unfortunately.
>>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>>> >>>> The old boys club is just that: a club of old boys who have
>>>>>>> >>>> benefits for themselves.  They even have a sign on their
>>>>>>> >>>> clubhouse that states 'No Girlz'.  (the rest of us are the
>>>>>>> >>>> girlz if that wasn't obvious)
>>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>>> >>>> BUT: you too can join the club: just rewind time by about 20
>>>>>>> >>>> years, get in on the ground floor 'IP Address Give Away'
>>>>>>> >>>> stock offering.
>>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>>> >>>> Or do what others do, buy larger netblock holding companies:
>>>>>>>  PROFIT
>>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>>> >>>> If I sound a little bitter, I apologize.  The playing field
>>>>>>> >>>> should be level when it comes to this resource.  It never has
>>>>>>> >>>> been.  I don't think it ever will be.
>>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>>> >>>> I said it, you read it, I can't take it back.
>>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>>> >>>> --
>>>>>>> >>>> Mike Horwath      ipHouse - Welcome home!
>>>>>>>       drechsau at iphouse.net
>>>>>>> >>>>         The universe is an island, surrounded by whatever it is
>>>>>>> >>>>         that surrounds universes. - Berkely Fortune
>>>>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> >>>> ARIN-Discuss
>>>>>>> >>>> You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to
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>>>>>>> >>>> Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:
>>>>>>> >>>> http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss
>>>>>>> >>>> Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues.
>>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>> >>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> >>> ARIN-Discuss
>>>>>> >>> You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to
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>>>>>> >>> Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:
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>>>>>> >>> Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues.
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >> _______________________________________________
>>>>> >> ARIN-Discuss
>>>>> >> You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to
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>>>>> >> Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues.
>>>> >
>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>> > ARIN-Discuss
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>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>> > ARIN-Discuss
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>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> ARIN-Discuss
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>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> ARIN-Discuss
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> 
> 


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