[arin-discuss] Dean -vs- ARIN... again (Re: The joy of SWIPping)

Tue May 20 16:21:07 EDT 2008

Since this topic has moved to what ARIN is requiring for additional IP  
allocation...

Is it normal practice to be asked what our customers are using the IP  
space for?  I've been under the impression that as long as we're using  
more than 80% of our current usage and show information for the  
upcoming allocation that is all that should be required.  We've been  
asked in the past why we're allocating certain size blocks to certain  
customers and for what reason.  I'm not sure this is kosher and we  
have NDA's with quite a few customers preventing us from discussing  
their operations.

FWIW, ARIN has asked us for complete SWIP information but we are  
allowed to use the customers name or company name with our data center  
address.

--Matt Kelly

On May 20, 2008, at 4:12 PM, Chad Kissinger wrote:

>
> Well, I've now heard two different stories in the past two e-mails.   
> Scott's story is consistent with my experience... ARIN demands  
> complete SWIP information prior to issuing IP numbers.  Michael  
> claims that he has gotten away with less.  If actual practice is  
> less stringent than the policy, we should re-write the policy so  
> that people like me, who just want to follow the rules and get the  
> IP space as quickly and painlessly as possible, can just read the  
> simple English in the policy to see what is really required.  I  
> don't want to have my lawyer send their lawyer a letter.  I just  
> want a fair, clear policy that everyone has to follow.  I personally  
> think sending a spreadsheet with the information to ARIN under NDA  
> should be sufficient.
>
>
> Onramp Access
> chad kissinger  |  president  |  onramp access, inc.
> p: 512.322.9200  |  f: 512.476.2878  |  www.onr.com
> your internet operations  |  built  |  deployed  |  managed
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net 
> ] On Behalf Of michael.dillon at bt.com
> Sent: Tuesday, May 20, 2008 2:46 PM
> To: arin-discuss at arin.net
> Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Dean -vs- ARIN... again (Re: The joy of  
> SWIPping)
>
>> I disagree, the issue is whether or not you have to put
>> specific customer information in RWHOIS or SWIP, I haven't
>> seen anyone from ARIN answer that yet.
>
> We're all ARIN members here, aren't we? Who makes ARIN policies?
> Members plus other interested parties make the rules so if the
> rules are out of sync with reality, we should not just knuckle
> down and follow the rules, we should change them.
>
>> You can assert
>> anything you want, but I want to hear it from the people who
>> are going to approve/deny my next IP space request.
>
> As far as I'm aware, the rules covering what must be published
> in the ARIN whois directory (via SWIP or RWHOIS) are not connected
> to the rules for allocating new IP space.
>
> In any case, I rather doubt whether ARIN hostmasters ever look
> at this list, and even if they did, I doubt that their bosses
> would allow them to post anything on the issue. At best, you
> will get someone from ARIN management to make a statement.
>
> I've already mentioned that my company does not publish
> any more than customer name and city for business customers.
> No street address, no zip code. Yet we have successfully
> received /16 (or better) allocations several times over the last
> 6 years or so. We do however, provide the ARIN hostmasters with
> full detail on every internal allocation or assignment, right
> down to the /32 level, but that is under NDA and even the ARIN
> management are not allowed to look at that information.
>
>> Please note
>> that until your prior utilization is verified to meet the 80%
>> requirement, ARIN can neither process nor approve a request
>> for additional addresses."
>
> That's the key sentence. They want proof, not records published
> in the whois directory. We have provided database dumps, charts
> of actual vs. forecast growth, pointers to public web pages which
> list PoP cities and other miscellanea.
>
>> I cannot find any "ARIN privacy policy for publishing data in
>> a public forum"
>>
>> So, the question remains, do you have to put the true POC
>> information for each of your customers in SWIP and expose it
>> to the Internet and your competitors?
>
> It really depends on your IQ, and business acumen. I seriously  
> recommend
> that you do not publish any zip codes or street addresses, and only
> publish
> company names for larger customers where it isn't much of a secret
> anyway.
> If ARIN's hostmaster complains, be direct with them and tell them why
> you
> will not publish the information, remind them of the NDA that they  
> have
> signed,
> and submit the info to the hostmaster only. If this lack of publishing
> the
> information is the sole sticking point, then sue ARIN.
>
> It is unfair, in a legal sense, for ARIN to force one of its members  
> to
> publish commercially sensitive information that will benefit your
> competitors,
> namely other ARIN members. This is not the kind of level playing field
> that
> one expects to be created by "self regulation" and if ARIN is not
> willing
> to play fair, sue the bastards to get it on the public record.
>
> Quite frankly, I doubt that it would ever get to this point because if
> your
> lawyer writes ARIN's lawyer a letter, then ARIN's lawyer will point  
> out
> that
> you have misunderstood the hostmaster and that the sticking point on
> your
> application was not related to the incomplete data in the whois
> directory.
>
> In any case, the ARIN employees really should not be posting
> interpretations
> of policy to this list.
>
> --Michael Dillon
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