[arin-discuss] Status of Investigations

Hutchison, Tine THutchison at corp.untd.com
Fri Jan 18 12:50:32 EST 2008 

Dean, I believe that your request for an investigation does not have
significant support from the membership.  Lacking significant support, I
think it is a waste for ARIN to spend time and resources investigating
your concerns.

To the wider audience, is it possible to have a vote at the next meeting
concerning Dean's request for an investigation?  Can he have a 5 or 10
minute time slot to present the case for the need of an investigation?

Dean, if a vote happens, and you are unable to muster the required
percentage of votes (whatever that number is,) will you drop this issue?

Tine Hutchison

-----Original Message-----
From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net
[mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Dean Anderson
Sent: Friday, January 18, 2008 9:21 AM
To: Michael Smith
Cc: arin-discuss at arin.net
Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Status of Investigations

[ARIN agrees that discussion to recall Board members, to conduct
investigations of ARIN expenditures, and to stop certain ARIN
expenditures does not violate the ARIN AUP.]


I have to say this one more time:

Michael Smith does not have anything to do with my legal counsel, nor
anything to do with what topics or terms my counsel has approved.

As far as I know, Mr. Smith does not have anything to do with ARIN's
legal counsel.

The discussion of the topics I posted on December 28th are indeed
appropriate.

The preface to my message is not a "discovery preamble". Indeed there is
no such term as "discovery preamble" in Black's Law Dictionary. This
term is apparently a fabrication by Mr. Smith to embellish his argument.
The preface to my message reflects the agreement on appropriate topics
under the AUP.

It is clear that some people want to stop or impede these
investigations. ARIN itself is stonewalling and has not provided
sufficient responses to reasonable questions about its activities. For
some questions, ARIN has not responded at all.  Board Members (e.g.  
Scott Bradner) have refused to respond to direct questions about whether
they have a conflict of interest. However, Mr.  Smith's attempt to
influence and silence these discussions by baseless claims, is, well,
baseless.

		--Dean

On Thu, 17 Jan 2008, Michael Smith wrote:

> Hello Mel:
> 
> I have to say this one more time.  Dean has engaged legal counsel in 
> his complaints to/with ARIN and has prefaced all of his emails to this

> list with a discovery preamble such that any responses can be used as 
> part of his claims.  As such, I don't think any of these discussions 
> are now appropriate for this or any list, regardless of whether they 
> were before.  Once you bring in the lawyers, it is up to them to come 
> to terms.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Michael Smith - CISSP, GISP
> Adhost Internet LLC
> mksmith at adhost.com
> 
> 
> On Jan 4, 2008, at 3:48 PM, Stotyn, Mel wrote:
> 
> >
> > I disagree with both Jeff and Chad regarding their criticism of Dean

> > and the appropriateness of his discussion.
> >
> > Jeff:
> > I don't think that you can realistically claim to know what Dean 
> > does or doesn't care about nor what he really wants. I interpret 
> > differently than you. To me, Dean appears to have more than one 
> > concern, not just the legacy issue but also the propriety of ARIN's 
> > finances and the oversight provided by it's board members. It does 
> > seem possible to me that Dean could have more than one concern at a 
> > time. For you to clip out one of several of Dean's examples of 
> > possible impropriety, and them claim to know that the phrase "Legacy

> > RSA" within that clip is really his only concern, is both unfair and

> > perhaps a little inflammatory.
> >
> > Chad:
> > I think that Dean's requests for information from ARIN, to verify 
> > his concerns, is appropriate and not innuendo. The lack of cogent 
> > responses has been the biggest problem for me while "listening in". 
> > Many of the responses, from ARIN board members, to his queries have 
> > been obfuscations, and his attempts to get clear answers has caused 
> > increased traffic in the discussion, but the root problem is lack of

> > clear, informative answers.
> >
> > Both:
> > I think that this current incarnation of the discussion is generally

> > both relevant and appropriate for the ARIN-DISCUSS mailing list if 
> > we are to have enough relevant information to apply to a vote, if 
> > that finally comes. To be asked to just vote on a recall or to vote 
> > for/against someone during a normal election without access to any 
> > information prior to that event, is a waste of any democratic 
> > responsibility.
> >
> > The biggest waste of my personal bandwidth is from those who just 
> > call for shutting down the discussion or those who seem to just 
> > enjoy throwing gasoline on flames. I don't think that Dean is the 
> > flamer, nor, lately, the board members who have responded. I would 
> > like to see more clear, concise, reasoned responses to Dean's 
> > questions. Then, I think, the thread would seem more worth the time 
> > to read it.
> >
> > Mel Stotyn
> > Senior Operations Specialist
> > ENMAX Envision Inc.
> > mailto:mstotyn at enmax.com
> > Phone: 403 514-3443
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net
> > [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Chad Kissinger
> > Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2008 9:51 AM
> > To: Jeff Calvert; arin-discuss at arin.net
> > Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Status of Investigations
> >
> >
> >
> > I agree with Jeff.  Dean's got an axe to grind and obviously no bit 
> > of slime is too insignificant, nor is any innuendo too flimsy for 
> > him to throw into the fray.  He's lost all credibility with me.  
> > I've had too many customers who owed me money that sound just like 
> > him squawking about any crazy thing they can think of to avoid the
real issue...
> > that
> > they owe me money.   Dean is doing the same thing... hoping that
> > everyone will be either worn out or intimidated by his threats.  I 
> > say, put up or shut up.  Sue, or make a motion to change something 
> > under the governing rules of ARIN.
> >
> > My opinion on the real issue remains:
> >
> > 1.  ARIN should collect as little money as possible to accomplish 
> > its core mission.
> > 2.  The collections should be spread out evenly amongst the people 
> > who derive benefit from ARIN's service... i.e. everyone who uses an 
> > IP address under ARIN's "authority".  Legacy holders included.
> >
> >
> > Onramp Access
> > chad kissinger  |  president  |  onramp access, inc.
> > p: 512.322.9200  |  f: 512.476.2878  |  www.onr.com your internet 
> > operations  |  built  |  deployed  |  managed
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net
> > [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Jeff Calvert
> > Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2008 10:11 AM
> > To: arin-discuss at arin.net
> > Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Status of Investigations
> >
> >
> >
> >> Board member performance is the failure to obtain a legal opinion 
> >> on the Legacy RSA and the scheme to threaten Legacies with denial 
> >> of services unless they transferred rights to ARIN through the 
> >> Legacy
> > RSA.
> >
> > And Dean gets back to his real complaint.  This entire thread is a 
> > red herring.  Dean doesn't care about 10 year old lawsuits, NANOG 
> > attendance, marketing budgets, or recall elections.  Dean wants to 
> > the Legacy IP allocation policy to remain unchanged, and he will 
> > continue to harass the ARIN board until he gets his way.
> >
> >
> > Jeff Calvert
> > Network Administrator
> >
> > E: jcalvert at cyrusone.com
> > W: www.cyrusone.com
> >
> > ********************************************************************
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