[arin-discuss] SPAM-WARN:Re: [ppml] Counsel statement on Legacy assignments?

[Michael Thomas - Mathbox]

Ron,

> -----Original Message-----
> From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net 
> [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Ron Cleven
> Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2007 2:59 PM
> To: arin-discuss at arin.net
> Subject: SPAM-WARN:Re: [arin-discuss] [ppml] Counsel 
> statement on Legacy assignments?
> 
> 
> 
> > On Tue, 9 Oct 2007, Ron Cleven wrote:
> > 
> > 
> >>                   Legacy's have as much right to monetize
> >>                   these resources as you do.
> >>
> >>Wow!  So THIS is what this discussion is about?  MIT, et 
> al, are going 
> >>to start selling all the IPV4 space they aren't using?  Are 
> they going 
> >>to sell them off to individuals or back to ARIN?
> > 
> > 
> > No, MIT is not going to 'sell off space'. Rather, certain 
> persons want
> > to steal some legacy space so they can make money off of 
> that space.  
> > But MIT or other legacy holders have the same rights as 
> e.g. BT to make
> > money off of it.  MIT has as much fundamental right to run 
> an internet
> > service as BT does.
> 
> So, MIT needs all this IP space to run a REALLLLLLLY big ISP at some 
> time in the future?  That makes sense.  When were they planning on 
> starting that?  What kind of idiot do you take me for?  You 
> will have to 
> enlighten all of us about who those "certain persons" are who want to 
> "steal" legacy space to make money off it.  And please 
> enlighten all of 
> us specifically about how all these thieves are going to make their 
> money.  I certainly have no way to directly benefit from such 
> a change.
> 
> The idea of changing the ARIN charges to be scaled directly 
> based upon 
> IP space has NOTHING directly to do with legacy IP holders.  It is 
> purely to ensure responsible allocation of IPV4 space now and in the 
> future.  EVERYONE (not just those poooooor legacy holders) would be 
> equally incented to conserve IPV4 space.  I don't know and don't care 
> whether such a change would increase or decrease my annual dues.
> 
> 
> > 
> >>Gee, if ARIN has nothing in its charter relating to responsible 
> >>delegation of IPV4 space, it really should have.  
> > 
> > 
> > There is no relation to responsible delegation, here. It is 
> purely a 
> > 'land grab'. 
> > 
> > But ironically, the many of the same people that want to 
> steal the space
> > from legacy's also want to avoid rationing in order to prevent total
> > depletion in 3 years. 
> > 
> > 
> >>Finally, if ARIN does not have the legal authority to 
> update its fee 
> >>structures to incentify the preservation and responsible 
> delegation of 
> >>IPV4 space, then it is time to get Congress involved.  You 
> can parse 
> >>statements by attorneys all day long, but this is a no-brainer.
> > 
> > 
> > The legacy space, is by definition, delegated by the 
> government with no
> > strings attached before ARIN existed.  As the lawyer said, an Act to
> > take that back probably isn't even constitutional.
> > 
> 
> I must have missed that clause about IP space in my constitutional 
> studies.  Was this a freedom of speech issue?  Or does it 
> somehow relate 
>   to gun control?  I am frankly NEVER impressed by lawyers 
> claiming "It 
> is unconstitutional!".  Congress is perpetually undoing stupid things 
> they have done in the past.  This is no different.
> 
> 
> > Cost isn't a real issue, but it is frequently cited.  There 
> isn't much
> > cost associated with legacy space: infrequent changes to 
> registration
> > records, often no swip.  The whois service for legacy 
> assignments is a
> > service that non-legacy's want, and non-legacy's want 
> in-addr for legacy
> > space.  ARIN took on that insignificant burden for the 
> opportunity and
> > privilege of running the registry.  Cost isn't a legitimate issue.
> > 
> 
> What?  What does the cost to supply "whois" service have to do with a 
> change in the ARIN fee structure to encourage responsible usage of IP 
> space?  NOTHING!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> The bottom line is that if ARIN members were charged annual fees 
> directly proportional to their IP space size, then I can 
> guarantee you 
> that a whole lot of ISP's (and other entities, some of which 
> are legacy 
> holders) would start looking really critically at how they are using 
> their IP space.  And lots of them would suddenly find really creative 
> ways to reduce their usage of IPV4 space.  Maybe even some of 

There are approximately 73 X-Large members. A /13 has 2048 /24. They pay for
149,504 /24s. Given from ARIN data that X-Large holds over 79% of /24. Given
that my addition of 1,148,855  ARIN allocated /24 since 1999 is
approximately close, then X-Large are holding approximately 907,595 /24.
That is 758,091 _free_ /24, or approximately 100,000 /24 per X-Large.

It requires only 3 (out of 73) of the mathematical average 100,000 _free_
/24 to exceed the total of all other /24 held by all other ISP members of
ARIN.

Those same X-Large use those /24 to defend their turf in competition. I have
seen it and I have heard about it. It is easy to give something away when it
does not cost you anything. Before someone jumps in to refute this, how do
you know they do not do this? What, you audited 900,000 /24?

I am really, really tired of people telling me that IP addresses have no
value, therefore the community pool of IP resources has no value. Regardless
of where IPV6 stands, when the V4 pool runs out, we will see how much value
an IP address has. It will not be $0.00.

> them would 
> start to consider IPV6.  Hence, all this discussion about 
> whether legacy 
> holders have enough space to make this change worthwhile is totally 
> silly.  IT IS NOT ABOUT LEGACY IP HOLDERS.  It is all about 
> conservation 
> of IPV4 across the board, and making that entire process 
> self-policing.
> 
> 
> > There aren't any legitimate issues whatsoever. 
> > 
> > Its just a simple theft of resources from a group that isn't well
> > represented on ARIN ppml, on the false premise of anarchy 
> and lack of 
> > rights.
> > 
> > ARIN has plenty of authority over the all of the space 
> delegated by IANA
> > since 1996.  There isn't much Legacy space, but people want 
> to steal it 
> > anyway.
> > 
> > 		--Dean
> > 
> > 
> > 
> 
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Michael Thomas
Mathbox
978-683-6718
1-877-MATHBOX (Toll Free)