ARIN Justified..

[Joe DeCosta]

OKay, why do they give the e-mail admin@ to someone like that, and *I* had
to reply to it to become subscribed. eesh.


On Sun, 14 Jan 2001, Gilbert Martin @ Learning Solutions wrote:

> Daniel you added yourself to the mailing list, go and find out how to remove
> yourself from vwp at arin.net!
> No need to be rude but you did add yourself because I added myself!
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: daniel levesque [mailto:admin at dialup-qc.i-p.com]
> Sent: Saturday, January 13, 2001 11:44 PM
> To: Gilbert Martin @ Learning Solutions; 'Joe DeCosta'
> Cc: 'Chris Miller'; Jim Macknik; vwp at arin.net
> Subject: Re: ARIN Justified..
> 
> 
> GET LOST WHIT THAT SHIT
> REMOVE MY EMAIL FROM YOUR LIST
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Gilbert Martin @ Learning Solutions" <Gilbert.Martin at za.didata.com>
> To: "'Joe DeCosta'" <decosta at bayconnect.com>; "Gilbert Martin @ Learning
> Solutions" <Gilbert.Martin at za.didata.com>
> Cc: "'Chris Miller'" <ctodd at netgate.net>; "Jim Macknik"
> <jmacknik at inflow.com>; <vwp at arin.net>
> Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2001 8:08 AM
> Subject: RE: ARIN Justified..
> 
> 
> > Yes, simply because of the fact that there will be x amount of addresses
> > given to machines and y amount available for huge web space useres, and
> even
> > inside of a corporate network secretaries do use the Internet address
> space
> > more, tentavively as soon as they discover Internet explorer they go
> > ballistic!!!
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Joe DeCosta [mailto:decosta at bayconnect.com]
> > Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2001 9:41 AM
> > To: Gilbert Martin @ Learning Solutions
> > Cc: 'Chris Miller'; Jim Macknik; vwp at arin.net
> > Subject: Re: ARIN Justified..
> >
> >
> > Could you clairfy why computers on INTERNAL networks would need a fully
> > routeable STATIC ip address? I don't see why a private computer inside a
> > corporate network at some secrataries desk needs a fully routeable
> > static ip. etc etc...
> >
> >
> >
> > "Gilbert Martin @ Learning Solutions" wrote:
> > >
> > > Exactly what I said yesterday, wouldn't it be more simple for people not
> > > accessing external networks via the INternet to rather be given a static
> > > address and then if the need arises let them also be able to request a
> > newer
> > > address, the end result will be that only those using ISP's will be
> using
> > up
> > > address space?
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Chris Miller [mailto:ctodd at netgate.net]
> > > Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2001 3:09 AM
> > > To: Jim Macknik
> > > Cc: vwp at arin.net
> > > Subject: RE: ARIN Justified..
> > >
> > > Sun Microsystems (and others companies I'm sure) has many addresses that
> > > never see the internet, they use most of these strictly for their
> internal
> > > networks. Surely they could use reserved addresses for many of these
> > > purposes.....
> > >
> > > Sun Microsystems, Inc. (NETBLK-SUN4)
> > >    2550 Garcia Avenue
> > >    Mountain View, CA 94043
> > >
> > >    Netname: SUN4
> > >    Netblock: 129.144.0.0 - 129.159.255.255
> > >
> > > Chris
> > >
> > > On Tue, 9 Jan 2001, Jim Macknik wrote:
> > >
> > > > This brings up a good point, as well. How will ARIN enforce its
> > policies?
> > > > There are large companies out there that have several Class B or Class
> A
> > > > ranges all to themselves that they "reserved" years ago. I doubt many
> of
> > > > these organizations could properly justify this space at this time.
> > > >
> > > > Will ARIN require them to justify their use and take away the extras,
> > > > requiring huge organizations or ISPs to completely re-allocate their
> > > > addressing? If they don't, how will they be able to justify revoking
> > > denying
> > > > space to others looking to increase their allocation?
> > > >
> > > > This isn't an easy one, but it certainly has to be addressed if ARIN
> is
> > > > concerned about political ramifications of a policy that will affect
> > > whether
> > > > businesses can even *do* business.
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Joe DeCosta [mailto:decosta at bayconnect.com]
> > > > Sent: Tuesday, January 09, 2001 4:00 PM
> > > > To: Clayton Lambert; 'Douglas Cohn'; vwp at arin.net
> > > > Subject: Re: ARIN Justified...
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Well, what do you think that the best approach to this would be, I
> think
> > a
> > > > BIG part of the entire IP space problem is the HUGE market of ISP's
> like
> > > > earthlink, Genuity(aka BBN), and the free services that just give any
> > > schmoe
> > > > an IP address, I don't think that this is soemthing that  is viable,
> we
> > > even
> > > > to a small Extent use NAT/Name based Virtual Hosting for  some of the
> > > > domains runing on the secondary T1 in our office.  This all works
> fine,
> > > and
> > > > uses 1 ip for many things.  Perhaps this is a viable options, but i do
> > > think
> > > > that ARIN should enforce some sort of NAT with providers (aol,
> > earthlink,
> > > > freebie ISPs et al.) who allow just anybody to have an IP when its not
> > > > needed.  from an admin point of view this can be a bit hellish but
> well
> > > > worth the IP space that is being wasted on people that dont *NEED*
> > random
> > > > inbound traffic.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Clayton Lambert" <Clay at exodus.net>
> > > > To: "'Joe DeCosta'" <decosta at bayconnect.com>; "'Douglas Cohn'"
> > > > <Douglas.Cohn at Virtualscape.com>; <vwp at arin.net>
> > > > Sent: Tuesday, January 09, 2001 2:17 PM
> > > > Subject: RE: ARIN Justified...
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > No argument at all on those points either Joe,
> > > > >
> > > > > In fact, it seems there is a lot of common ground on this topic,
> maybe
> > > we
> > > > > should try to identify the specific agreed-upon points and
> > > > disagreements...?
> > > > >
> > > > > It might be something to work from.
> > > > >
> > > > > -Clay
> > > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: owner-vwp at arin.net [mailto:owner-vwp at arin.net]On Behalf Of Joe
> > > > > DeCosta
> > > > > Sent: Monday, January 08, 2001 6:44 PM
> > > > > To: Clayton Lambert; 'Douglas Cohn'; vwp at arin.net
> > > > > Subject: Re: ARIN Justified...
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > agreed, but with all of the home users, shouldn't some of the major
> > > ISP's
> > > > be
> > > > > considering NAT for DSL/ISDN and Dialup users? i mean, it's an idea,
> i
> > > > don't
> > > > > know how well it would be accepted, i also think that AOL should be
> > > forced
> > > > > to use NAT.........its rediclous to see how many IP blocks they own,
> > but
> > > > > dialup/isdn/dsl NAT i think could be a suggestion to ISP's no??
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: "Clayton Lambert" <Clay at exodus.net>
> > > > > To: "'Douglas Cohn'" <Douglas.Cohn at Virtualscape.com>; <vwp at arin.net>
> > > > > Sent: Monday, January 08, 2001 4:59 PM
> > > > > Subject: RE: ARIN Justified...
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > IPv6 is not the panacea you seem to think it is...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > With a mentality like that, we'd burn thru IPv6 in 10 years or
> > less...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > -Clay
> > > > > >
> > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > From: owner-vwp at arin.net [mailto:owner-vwp at arin.net]On Behalf Of
> > > Douglas
> > > > > > Cohn
> > > > > > Sent: Friday, January 05, 2001 6:59 AM
> > > > > > To: vwp at arin.net
> > > > > > Subject: FW: ARIN Justified...
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I forwarded your email to the list for you
> > > > > >
> > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > From: Allen Ahoffman [mailto:ahoffman at announce.com]
> > > > > > Sent: Friday, July 10, 2893 6:44 PM
> > > > > > To: Douglas Cohn
> > > > > > Subject: Re: ARIN Justified...
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > OK let me interject a question into this discussion:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Why are we requiring a /19 or in some cases /20 of space before
> > being
> > > > > > allowed to get our own allocation?
> > > > > > I realize management is an issue, but a $2500/year it encourages
> > small
> > > > > > users to build up to that point.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > We get users who don't want us to have iI space from other
> vendors,
> > so
> > > > > > we
> > > > > > get pressure for more iP usage and pressure for less.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > For example, in converting from one provider to another I have had
> > > > > > difficult time getting replacment iP space in less than 8 months
> > now,
> > > > > > but
> > > > > > was making efforts to not purchase the /19.  I thik we might bge
> by
> > > > > > without it but the minimum size creates pressure to fill IP(s).
> > > > > > I do agree that users seem to want IP(s) without reason, seems
> like
> > > IPV6
> > > > > > might look more appealing every day?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > [Charset
> > > > > > iso-8859-1 unsupported,
> > > > > > filtering to ASCII...] > I must get my two cents in here as well.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I feel Clayton has the right track.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I manage IP allocation as well for dedicated and colocated
> > clients.
> > > > > > Our
> > > > > > > policy used to state each server was issued 16 IPs.  We
> provision
> > > with
> > > > > > 1
> > > > > > > IP only.  If a client asks for the rest I also require the need
> > for
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > IPs.
> > > > > > > Too often they want them for testing or only because they saw
> that
> > > > > > they
> > > > > > > get 16 IPs with a server.  They must supply the domain names and
> > > > > > reasons
> > > > > > > why they cannot use IPless hosting.  While I will not force
> IPless
> > > > > > > hosting on clients I push it and train it's use for free.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > We now state that you get a single IP with each dedicated server
> > and
> > > > > > > additional IPs are billed on a monthly basis.  This helps a lot
> to
> > > > > > > defray usage.  While it is a revenue stream that is not it's
> > purpose
> > > > > > > whatsoever.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > In Shared hosting though the issues are clearly Search engines
> and
> > > SSL
> > > > > > > as far as I know.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Most people understand why we watch our address space and
> > appreciate
> > > > > > it.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Douglas Cohn
> > > > > > > Manager NY Engineering
> > > > > > > Hostcentric, Inc.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > > From: owner-vwp at arin.net [mailto:owner-vwp at arin.net]On Behalf Of
> > > > > > Stephen
> > > > > > > Elliott
> > > > > > > Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2001 4:47 PM
> > > > > > > To: Clayton Lambert; Virtual IP List
> > > > > > > Subject: Re: ARIN Justified...
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > :-)  The reason I mentioned Exodus is because we are a customer
> of
> > > > > > > Exodus, and in my opinion, the policy is too restrictive.  And
> the
> > > > > > > statement was directed at the fact that Exodus hosts many
> > companies
> > > > > > that
> > > > > > > are in the business of hosting websites, not Exodus as a
> company.
> > > As
> > > > > > I
> > > > > > > have stated in earlier postings, simply clamping down and
> > > restricting
> > > > > > > virtual web hosting is not the answer.  Any list of
> > justifications,
> > > no
> > > > > > > matter how much thought went into it, will not cover every
> > possible
> > > > > > > reason for needing the IP's.  Documentation is a great thing,
> just
> > > the
> > > > > > > fact that someone has to sit down and write out a list of
> machines
> > > > > > that
> > > > > > > need IP's will deter most people from requesting extra IP's.
> > > > > > > -Stephen
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Clayton Lambert wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Do you have ANY idea of what you are saying?  Sorry for
> > appearing
> > > > > > > brash,
> > > > > > > > but...I run the IP maintenance organization at Exodus, and I
> > would
> > > > > > > easily
> > > > > > > > stack our allocation policy up against anybody's.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > You have no idea what you are talking about in regard to
> larger
> > > > > > > companies.
> > > > > > > > Exodus consumes a very modest amount of address space given
> our
> > > size
> > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > presence on the Internet.  There are much smaller competitors
> of
> > > > > > ours
> > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > consume larger amounts of IP space.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Exodus is already pioneering the efficiency of use ideology
> that
> > I
> > > > > > > would
> > > > > > > > like to see ARIN adopt (a strong HTTP1.1 stance on ARIN's part
> > is
> > > a
> > > > > > > good
> > > > > > > > start).  We currently require extensive supporting
> documentation
> > > for
> > > > > > > IP
> > > > > > > > requests from all our Customers.  A Customer has to show a
> > > > > > documented
> > > > > > > need
> > > > > > > > for their usage request and we file all these requests and
> refer
> > > to
> > > > > > > past
> > > > > > > > requests and detail as additional requests for address space
> > > occur.
> > > > > > > This
> > > > > > > > method gives us a very clear and honest indication of IP
> address
> > > > > > usage
> > > > > > > > growth. This allows us to support our Customers' IP addressing
> > > needs
> > > > > > > in a
> > > > > > > > very accurate and efficient way.  The end result is less
> > > consumption
> > > > > > > of IPv4
> > > > > > > > space across the board.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Clayton Lambert
> > > > > > > > Exodus Communications
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > > > From: owner-vwp at arin.net [mailto:owner-vwp at arin.net]On Behalf
> Of
> > > > > > > Stephen
> > > > > > > > Elliott
> > > > > > > > Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2001 12:20 PM
> > > > > > > > To: Virtual IP List
> > > > > > > > Subject: RE: ARIN Justified...
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >         The big guys that you refer to are generally not in
> the
> > > web
> > > > > > > hosting
> > > > > > > > business and therefore are outside of the scope of this
> > > > > > conversation.
> > > > > > > > The real concern is the big guys like Exodus and UUNet.  Since
> > > IPv6
> > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > not a viable option for general consumption yet, we need to
> > > > > > > concentrate
> > > > > > > > on conserving the existing IPv4 space.  As far as search
> engines
> > > go,
> > > > > > > if
> > > > > > > > enough sites start using HTTP1.1 software virtual servers,
> they
> > > will
> > > > > > > be
> > > > > > > > forced to upgrade their spiders to support it.  I would
> suggest
> > > that
> > > > > > > one
> > > > > > > > of the main issues at hand is billing.  Billing for web
> hosting
> > > > > > > > companies that is.  Most companies bundle bandwidth with their
> > > > > > hosting
> > > > > > > > packages, and current billing packages utilize destination IP
> > > > > > address
> > > > > > > > information to gather this information.  If there is not a way
> > to
> > > > > > get
> > > > > > > > this information without drastic changes to both billing
> > software
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > some cases hardware, there will be very strong opposition to
> any
> > > > > > > changes
> > > > > > > > in the way IP addresses are given out.
> > > > > > > > -Stephen
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > Stephen Elliott                 Harrison & Troxell
> > > > > > > > Systems & Networking Manager    2 Faneuil Hall Marketplace
> > > > > > > > Systems & Networking Group      Boston, Ma 02109
> > > > > > > > (617)227-0494 Phone             (617)720-3918 Fax
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > Stephen Elliott                 Harrison & Troxell
> > > > > > > Systems & Networking Manager    2 Faneuil Hall Marketplace
> > > > > > > Systems & Networking Group      Boston, Ma 02109
> > > > > > > (617)227-0494 Phone             (617)720-3918 Fax
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
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> 
> *******************************************************************
> The information in this e-mail is confidential and is legally privileged.
> It is intended solely for the addressee.  If this email is not intended for
> you, you cannot copy, distribute, or disclose the included information
> to any-one
> 
> If you are not the intended recipient please delete the mail. Whilst
> all reasonable steps have been taken to ensure the accuracy and
> integrity of all data transmitted electronically, no liability is accepted
> if the data, for whatever reason, is corrupt or does not reach it's
> intended destination.
> All business is undertaken, subject to our standard trading conditions
> which are available on request.
> 
> *******************************************************************
>