<div dir="auto">Actually I’m drawing a distinction between natural persons operating a business and natural persons not operating a business, I’m simply using hobbyists as clear example of that latter group. Hobbyist is about as far away from operating as a business I can think of.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">To a certain extent, ARIN’s current practice already includes natural persons operating a business, but excludes natural persons not operating a business.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">If we intend natural person in policy statement to include those not operating a business, like hobbyists, that is a change to current practices. Which is fine with me, but we should be explicit that this change is intentional. Maybe add “nature persons acting in any capacity” to the text or in the discussion make it clear natural person intentionally includes all natural persons, those operating a business or not, including hobbyists.<br clear="all"><br clear="all"><div dir="auto"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature">===============================================<br>David Farmer <a href="mailto:Email%3Afarmer@umn.edu" target="_blank">Email:farmer@umn.edu</a><br>Networking & Telecommunication Services<br>Office of Information Technology<br>University of Minnesota <br>2218 University Ave SE Phone: 612-626-0815<br>Minneapolis, MN 55414-3029 Cell: 612-812-9952<br>=============================================== </div></div></div><div><br></div><div><br><div class="gmail_quote gmail_quote_container"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sun, Jun 1, 2025 at 16:24 John Santos <<a href="mailto:john@egh.com">john@egh.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><u></u>
<div>
<p>You seem to be drawing a distinction between natural persons who
are hobbyists and those who are not. Is that a distinction
without a difference?</p>
<p>Should ALL hobbyists who otherwise meet the criteria be allowed
to acquire Internet number resources, or should there be
additional restrictions beyond those that apply to any business,
sole proprietorship, partnership, government agency, NGO,
educational institution, etc.?</p>
<p>Why should someone who meets all the requirements but is NOT a
hobbyist be denied access to resources?</p>
<p>Could this all be resolved by adding additional requirements that
automatically pertain to anything currently recognized as an
"organization" by ARIN, but do not necessarily apply to all
natural persons?</p>
<p>I think there is an unstated major premise in this argument,
unstated by both sides.</p>
<p>I don't know what that premise is. I think I may be missing an
important point.</p>
<p>The only way to determine, as far as I can tell, who is a
hobbyist and who is not, is if that person self-identifies as a
hobbyist. If so, anyone can do that. It is a meaningless legal
distinction, and I support the proposal as written.</p>
<p>But maybe the unstated premise, if it were stated, might make
clear why people are concerned about this. Maybe there should be
some additional requirement beyond simply agreeing to the terms of
the RSA? What are those requirements that would apply to a
natural person, but either do not apply to an organization or are
implicitly implied when an organization signs the RSA? Why isn't
simply signing the RSA, abiding by its terms and paying any fees,
sufficient?</p>
<p>-- John<br>
</p>
<div>On 6/1/2025 4:10 PM, David Farmer via
ARIN-PPML wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>Thank you, Owen. My original point was that, as written,
allowing natural persons without any language that restricts
them to operating a business effectively allows hobbyists.
As I said later in the thread, part of me is good with that;
however, if we actaully intend hobbyists to be included, and
at least some people supporting the policy, do
intend hobbyists to be included, we need to be
explicit about that being our intent, which the current text
is not. So, with the current text, hobbyists are included as
natural persons, but as written, that appears to be
an unintended consequence. Therefore, we either need to be
abundantly clear that we intend hobbyists to be included, or
we need language restricting natural persons to operating a
business if we don't intend hobbyists to be included.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>In my original post, I focused on the latter part,
providing language restricting natural persons to operating
a business, and somehow, I lost the first part about being
abundantly clear that we intend hobbyists to be included.
Sorry about that.</div>
<div dir="ltr"><br>
</div>
Thanks.</div>
<div dir="ltr"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sun, Jun 1, 2025 at
1:03 PM Owen DeLong via ARIN-PPML <<a href="mailto:arin-ppml@arin.net" target="_blank">arin-ppml@arin.net</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="auto">
<div dir="ltr">+1</div>
<div dir="ltr"><br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr">There are those that would consider my
network in the “hobbyist” category. I’d argue that
David’s use of the term here is the most vague part of
the discussion in that there’s no clear line to
differentiate hobbyist from business.</div>
<div dir="ltr"><br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr">My network has ARIN resources and RIPE
resources (the latter being the result of a convoluted
need to resolve issues created by the ARIN board).
Those resources are registered to “Owen DeLong and
Family”. There are no corporations that I consider
family members, so for better or worse, those
resources were issued to natural persons. </div>
<div dir="ltr"><br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr">While ARIN has consistently claimed that
resources were always issued to organizations, not
individuals, the meaning of that statement has morphed
over the years without actual policy changes to
support its evolution. Originally, it was intended to
clarify that regardless of who the registered POCs on
the resource were, the resource was registered to the
ORG. For several years now, it’s been used as a cudgel
to deny issuing resources to those who apply as
individuals without first creating some form of
organizational facade and more recently ARIN has
started using it to require that facade be some form
of legal business entity. </div>
<div dir="ltr"><br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr">I support the policy as written and
believe that rather than anything being snuck in
through vague language, the policy clarifies prior
policy intent which staff has drifted away from over
many years of evolution. </div>
<div dir="ltr"><br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr">Owen</div>
<div dir="ltr"><br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr"><br>
<blockquote type="cite">On May 30, 2025, at 11:40,
Matt Erculiani <<a href="mailto:merculiani@gmail.com" target="_blank">merculiani@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="auto">I’ll double down. </div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">What threat does a hobbyist pose to
the global routing or Internet numbers systems?</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">Presumably someone going through
this process isn’t your average
home-labber; what’s the harm in them having a
block of their own unique IPv6 if they pay the
bill on-time? There are plenty of tunnel services
that make this a viable option these days.</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">I’m prepared to be eaten alive for
the suggestion.<br clear="all">
<br clear="all">
<div dir="auto">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature">
<div dir="ltr">Matt Erculiani<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri, May
30, 2025 at 12:30 Tyler O'Meara via ARIN-PPML
<<a href="mailto:arin-ppml@arin.net" target="_blank">arin-ppml@arin.net</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Hi
Ben,<br>
<br>
I don't think a categorical exclusion for
"hobbyists" (whatever that actually<br>
means in practice) is necessary or useful. The
relevant sections for resource<br>
justifications already require operating an
actual network, so someone (or<br>
organization) who wanted to come in and get IP
addresses without running a<br>
network would already be excluded. I suppose
theoretically they could request a<br>
single ASN, but if they're not planning on
actually running a network that ASN<br>
is worthless to them anyways. <br>
<br>
I'll also note that not all valid use cases
for acquiring resources necessitate<br>
participating in global routing, although I
doubt those use cases are<br>
particularly relevant to natural persons. We
should be careful not to<br>
accidentally remove these use cases however.<br>
<br>
Tyler<br>
<br>
On Fri, 2025-05-30 at 11:12 -0700, Ben Shapiro
wrote:<br>
> Thank you David, for the thoughtful
revisions and to ARIN staff for<br>
> progressing this discussion.<br>
> <br>
> As someone involved in the operation of a
small-to-medium Internet Exchange<br>
> Point (IXP), I’d like to offer a
complementary perspective from the<br>
> interconnection and community network
operator ecosystem.<br>
> <br>
> IXPs—particularly regional,
volunteer-run, or lightly incorporated<br>
> ones—frequently interface with a range of
participants, including small ISPs,<br>
> research networks, community fiber
projects, and technically capable<br>
> individuals who operate networks that
meaningfully contribute to regional<br>
> interconnection and resiliency. Some of
these operators do not have formal<br>
> corporate structures, yet they are deeply
engaged in the technical and<br>
> operational requirements of network
management and peering. From our vantage<br>
> point, the exclusion of natural persons
from eligibility can pose an<br>
> artificial barrier that does not align
with real-world routing and<br>
> interconnection practices.<br>
> <br>
> While I agree with David that natural
persons operating legal businesses<br>
> should unquestionably be considered valid
organizations, I also see<br>
> operational value in supporting natural
persons who:<br>
> <br>
> * Operate autonomous systems used in
peering environments;<br>
> * Maintain IPv6 prefixes with global
routing visibility;<br>
> * Support last-mile, experimental, or
community-focused efforts.<br>
> <br>
> Such actors are already required to
justify their needs under existing ARIN<br>
> policies. Adding verification of identity
and residency, as the draft<br>
> suggests, provides accountability without
unduly excluding legitimate network<br>
> operators who do not or cannot register
as a business.<br>
> <br>
> From the IXP perspective, clarity is
important. I support revising the policy<br>
> language to explicitly differentiate:<br>
> <br>
> 1. Hobbyists with no operational
network or intent to participate in global<br>
> routing (not eligible),<br>
> 2. Natural persons operating a
routable, justified network (eligible), and<br>
> 3. Natural persons operating a legal
business (clearly eligible).<br>
> <br>
> A possible refinement might be:<br>
> <br>
> > An organization is a company,
corporation, partnership, sole proprietorship,<br>
> > government agency, non-profit
entity, educational institution, or natural<br>
> > person who operates a network
consistent with ARIN’s resource justification<br>
> > requirements and, where applicable,
provides verification of identity and<br>
> > residency. A natural person solely
acting as a hobbyist is not considered an<br>
> > organization.<br>
> <br>
> This language allows for policy
consistency while acknowledging that technical<br>
> legitimacy can come in many forms.<br>
> <br>
> Thank you for the opportunity to comment.
I support further refinement of this<br>
> proposal and appreciate ARIN’s
responsiveness to community input.<br>
> <br>
> Best regards,<br>
> Ben<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> BEN SHAPIRO<br>
> President | Willamette Internet Exchange <br>
> <a href="mailto:president@thewix.net" target="_blank">president@thewix.net</a> |
(541) 255-0280<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> On May 30, 2025 at 10:59:00 AM, David
Farmer via ARIN-PPML<br>
> <<a href="mailto:arin-ppml@arin.net" target="_blank">arin-ppml@arin.net</a>>
wrote:<br>
> <br>
> > <br>
> > I do not support the policy as
written. As written, it is unclear whether<br>
> > natural persons not conducting
business and acting solely as hobbyists are<br>
> > excluded. However, natural persons
operating businesses in their own name<br>
> > should be considered valid
organizations.<br>
> > <br>
> > Organizations must; <br>
> > 1. Operate as legal businesses
within the ARIN service region.<br>
> > 2. Operate a network within the
ARIN service region with Internet number<br>
> > resources allocated by or registered
with ARIN.<br>
> > 3. Meet other policy or
eligibility criteria.<br>
> > From a policy perspective, the
first two are fundamental criteria that must<br>
> > be included in the definition of an
organization.<br>
> > <br>
> > I suggest the following revision to
the policy text;<br>
> > <br>
> > > 2.x Organization<br>
> > <br>
> > > An organization is a company,
corporation, partnership, sole<br>
> > > proprietorship, government
agency, non-profit entity, educational<br>
> > > institution, or natural person
operating as a legal business within the<br>
> > > ARIN service region. It must
also operate a network within the ARIN<br>
> > > service region with Internet
number resources allocated by or registered<br>
> > > with ARIN and meet other policy
or eligibility criteria.<br>
> > <br>
> > I also want to point out the recent
blog post by ARIN Staff about this<br>
> > subject.<br>
> > <a href="https://www.arin.net/blog/2025/05/28/individual-requests/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.arin.net/blog/2025/05/28/individual-requests/</a><br>
> > <br>
> > Thanks.<br>
> > <br>
> > On Tue, May 20, 2025 at 12:33 PM
ARIN <<a href="mailto:info@arin.net" target="_blank">info@arin.net</a>>
wrote:<br>
> > > On 15 May 2025, the ARIN
Advisory Council (AC) accepted ARIN-prop-343:<br>
> > > Resource Issuance to Natural
Persons as Draft Policy. <br>
> > > <br>
> > > Draft Policy ARIN-2025-4 is
below and can be found at:<br>
> > > <br>
> > > <a href="https://www.arin.net/participate/policy/drafts/2025_4" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.arin.net/participate/policy/drafts/2025_4</a><br>
> > > <br>
> > > You are encouraged to discuss
all Draft Policies on PPML. The AC will<br>
> > > evaluate the discussion to
assess the conformance of this draft policy<br>
> > > with ARIN's Principles of
Internet number resource policy as stated in
the<br>
> > > Policy Development Process
(PDP). Specifically, these principles are:<br>
> > > <br>
> > > * Enabling Fair and Impartial
Number Resource Administration<br>
> > > * Technically Sound<br>
> > > * Supported by the Community<br>
> > > <br>
> > > The PDP can be found at:<br>
> > > <br>
> > > <a href="https://www.arin.net/participate/policy/pdp/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.arin.net/participate/policy/pdp/</a><br>
> > > <br>
> > > Draft Policies and Proposals
under discussion can be found at: <br>
> > > <br>
> > > <a href="https://www.arin.net/participate/policy/drafts/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.arin.net/participate/policy/drafts/</a><br>
> > > <br>
> > > Regards,<br>
> > > <br>
> > > Eddie Diego<br>
> > > Policy Analyst<br>
> > > American Registry for Internet
Numbers (ARIN)<br>
> > > <br>
> > > <br>
> > > <br>
> > > Draft Policy ARIN-2025-4:
Resource Issuance to Natural Persons<br>
> > > <br>
> > > Problem Statement:<br>
> > > <br>
> > > ARIN policies currently
restrict the issuance of number resources to<br>
> > > organizations. This limits
access for individuals who are running
networks<br>
> > > under their own legal name,
especially in regions where forming or<br>
> > > registering a business is not
required or feasible. Other RIRs such as<br>
> > > RIPE NCC allow individuals to
receive resources directly. ARIN should<br>
> > > consider similar flexibility to
ensure equal and consistent access to<br>
> > > Internet number resources for
all operators, regardless of legal<br>
> > > structure.<br>
> > > <br>
> > > Policy Statement:<br>
> > > <br>
> > > This proposal introduces
explicit policy text into the NRPM to allow<br>
> > > number resource issuance to
natural persons (individuals) who provide<br>
> > > valid justification and
identity verification.<br>
> > > <br>
> > > Amend NRPM Section 2 to add the
following definition:<br>
> > > <br>
> > > 2.18 Organization<br>
> > > <br>
> > > An organization is a company,
corporation, partnership, sole<br>
> > > proprietorship, government
agency, non-profit entity, educational<br>
> > > institution, or a natural
person acting in a capacity consistent with<br>
> > > operating a network and who
meets ARIN’s resource eligibility criteria.<br>
> > > <br>
> > > Comments:<br>
> > > <br>
> > > Sections 4.2, 5.1, and 6.5
shall be interpreted to allow “organizations”<br>
> > > as newly defined in Section
2.12, thereby including individuals where<br>
> > > appropriate.<br>
> > > <br>
> > > Staff may develop identity
verification and residency requirements<br>
> > > appropriate to individuals
(e.g., government-issued photo ID and proof of<br>
> > > address).<br>
> > > <br>
> > > All resource justification,
utilization, and RSA signing requirements<br>
> > > remain unchanged.<br>
> > > <br>
> > > There has been extensive
discussion of this topic on the ARIN Public<br>
> > > Policy Mailing List (PPML) in
April 2025. Participants have cited<br>
> > > inconsistencies and barriers
created by reliance on state-level business<br>
> > > registries, and called for more
inclusive eligibility mechanisms similar<br>
> > > to other RIR regions. The
proposal addresses these concerns while<br>
> > > maintaining accountability and
justification requirements.<br>
> > > <br>
> > > Timetable for implementation:<br>
> > > <br>
> > > Recommend implementation within
3–6 months of ratification to allow ARIN<br>
> > > staff and legal counsel to
develop supporting processes.<br>
> > > <br>
> > > Anything else:<br>
> > > <br>
> > > This proposal does not reduce
the level of justification required to<br>
> > > obtain resources, but merely
expands eligibility to natural persons who<br>
> > > operate networks and meet all
existing technical and usage criteria.<br>
> > > <br>
> > > <br>
> > > <br>
> > > <br>
> > > <br>
> > >
_______________________________________________<br>
> > > ARIN-PPML<br>
> > > You are receiving this message
because you are subscribed to<br>
> > > the ARIN Public Policy Mailing
List (<a href="mailto:ARIN-PPML@arin.net" target="_blank">ARIN-PPML@arin.net</a>).<br>
> > > Unsubscribe or manage your
mailing list subscription at:<br>
> > > <a href="https://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml</a><br>
> > > Please contact <a href="mailto:info@arin.net" target="_blank">info@arin.net</a>
if you experience any issues.<br>
> > <br>
> > <br>
> > -- <br>
> >
===============================================<br>
> > David Farmer <a href="mailto:Email%3Afarmer@umn.edu" target="_blank">Email:farmer@umn.edu</a><br>
> > Networking & Telecommunication
Services<br>
> > Office of Information Technology<br>
> > University of Minnesota <br>
> > <a href="https://www.google.com/maps/search/2218+University+Ave+SE?entry=gmail&source=g">2218 University Ave SE</a> Phone:
612-626-0815<br>
> > Minneapolis, MN 55414-3029 Cell:
612-812-9952<br>
> >
===============================================
<br>
> > <br>
> >
_______________________________________________<br>
> > ARIN-PPML<br>
> > You are receiving this message
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> > <br>
> > <br>
>
_______________________________________________<br>
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</blockquote>
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<span>_______________________________________________</span><br>
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</blockquote>
</div>
<div><br clear="all">
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<span class="gmail_signature_prefix">-- </span><br>
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature">===============================================<br>
David Farmer <a href="mailto:Email%3Afarmer@umn.edu" target="_blank">Email:farmer@umn.edu</a><br>
Networking & Telecommunication Services<br>
Office of Information Technology<br>
University of Minnesota <br>
<a href="https://www.google.com/maps/search/2218+University+Ave+SE?entry=gmail&source=g">2218 University Ave SE</a> Phone: 612-626-0815<br>
Minneapolis, MN 55414-3029 Cell: 612-812-9952<br>
=============================================== </div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<fieldset></fieldset>
<pre>_______________________________________________
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</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre cols="80">--
John Santos
Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc.</pre>
</div>
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