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Hi Fernando,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>You make good points about the distributed nature of email and the benefits thereof. I also agree that the delayed nature of email and the inherent time required to think and compose a respose is a feature not a bug! The PPML is public and can be seen
from the ARIN site (without signing up to it) too, so any replacement would need, in my view, to offer that same visibility and transparency. Policy discussion pages make use of the PPML archives too, so again, any suggested system would need hooks to at the
very least point to the archives.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I think the upcoming generations have become used to messaging apps for their immediacy, interactivity and reactions. However, I agree that they are, dreadful for achieving or finding stuff, given their hosepipe nature of operation. A big no from me for
WhatsApp, Messenger, Slack, etc.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I think some, including myself would advocate for a more threaded system that would provide the above, plus the bells and whistles of reactions (👍, ✓ , etc), although the mailling list is something I’m used to and happy to continue to use.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>A candidate could be something like a discord, but I’m not pursuaded that's a good idea. There’s Discourse, where you spoin up your own instance and create/control topics, subjects, posts etc. That then begs the question who runs it? How? With what AUP?
etc etc etc. DEVONTechnologies (devs of DEVONthink app) use it for user forums. I’d advocate for something more like that. See here: <a href="https://discourse.devontechnologies.com/c/devonthink/6">https://discourse.devontechnologies.com/c/devonthink/6</a></div>
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Otherwise… Usenet anyone? 🤣🤣🤣<br>
<br>
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—<br>
My best/Cordialement,<br>
<br>
Matthew Cowen<br>
<br>
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<blockquote type="cite">
<div>On 30 Oct 2024, at 10:13, Fernando Frediani <fhfrediani@gmail.com> wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div>
<div>
<p>I am on this for a couple of years and still often hear colleagues talking about the reasons for low participation on Policy Forums. Some blame some discussions are discouraging while other mention email list format.<br>
</p>
<p>One thing to take in consideration is that these topics are not trivial and requires a minimal amount of time and patience dedicated to read, understand and write.<br>
I see that those who don't participate is simply because they don't want or don't consider this topic of any priority in their lives and don't put up the necessary time.</p>
<p>I think mailing-list continues to be the best method for the discussions to happen as it is well established for decades, everything gets recorded on both list archives and people's mailboxes and keeps an organized record of everything that has happened
to be easily consulted over time. <br>
Gen Z and Millennials in general often is seen to resist to email and wish to use messaging applications that not only make records go missing quiet easily but also reduce the quality of the discussion and taking off it important details.</p>
<p>Best regards<br>
Fernando<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 29/10/2024 13:44, Andrew Dul via ARIN-PPML wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:4846290e-1892-42b1-a809-e267d9cefb02@quark.net">
<p>In addition to the ability of the community to engage with each other at the public policy meetings, the community has the opportunity to engage with each other in this forum "the PPML." </p>
<p>While this forum is open to all who wish to participate, over the years my observation is that the number of people who participate interactively in this forum appears to decline and I hear from various members of the community that they do not participate
in the written PPML forum for a number of reasons. </p>
<p>We often see the AC shepherds prodding for input only to often see no replies or replies from the same dozen or so participants. This community is much larger than those participants. Over the years, it appears the use of mailing lists has become less
comfortable for some community participants. While I understand some of those reasons the fact remains that we are are here to do the public work of developing IP number resource policy and that policy should be carried out in public. If a mailing-list isn't
the right method to carry out this public work, then we must figure out what is the right way to continue this work so that IP number resource policy which is developed for the Internet community in the ARIN region is open and reflective of the Internet community
that ARIN represents.<br>
</p>
<p>Andrew</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 10/26/24 11:14 AM, Lee Howard via ARIN-PPML wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:1485278588.3641733.1729966460966@mail.yahoo.com">
<div class="ydp9286441dyahoo-style-wrap" style="font-family:times new roman, new york, times, serif;font-size:16px;">
<div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false">Top-posting because that's how email has worked for the last 20 years :-(</div>
<div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false">There are three kinds of meetings required in the ARIN Bylaws [1]:</div>
<div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false">* Public Policy <i>and </i>Members Meetings (biannual)</div>
<div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false">* Annual Meeting (annual)</div>
<div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false">A strong delineation between meetings is not the only way to achieve their objectives. But we must prioritize the core objectives. All of the laudable big tent objectives are secondary.</div>
<div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false">In my experience, largely supported by the hallway track, people don't travel thousands of miles to ARIN Public Policy and Members meetings to hear department reports and updates from external agencies. We travel because we
can get more conversation about proposals done in person than in months of PPML. It would be great to hear from others on why they come: respond to the
<a href="https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/ARIN54" moz-do-not-send="true">meeting survey</a>! And/or, join this conversation!</div>
<div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false">Again, that is not to say that I'm not interested in the work on ICP-2 or RPKI or ARIN Online developments: quite the opposite! But I read the mission statement as a prioritized list:</div>
<div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><span><span style="color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: system-ui, -apple-system, Segoe UI, Roboto, Helvetica Neue, Arial, Noto Sans, Liberation Sans, sans-serif, Apple Color Emoji, Segoe UI Emoji, Segoe UI Symbol, Noto Color Emoji; font-size: 16px;">1.
ARIN supports the operation of the Internet through the management of Internet number resources throughout its service region; </span></span></div>
<div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><span><span style="color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: system-ui, -apple-system, Segoe UI, Roboto, Helvetica Neue, Arial, Noto Sans, Liberation Sans, sans-serif, Apple Color Emoji, Segoe UI Emoji, Segoe UI Symbol, Noto Color Emoji; font-size: 16px;">2.
coordinates the development of policies by the community for the management of Internet Protocol number resources; and </span></span></div>
<div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><span><span style="color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: system-ui, -apple-system, Segoe UI, Roboto, Helvetica Neue, Arial, Noto Sans, Liberation Sans, sans-serif, Apple Color Emoji, Segoe UI Emoji, Segoe UI Symbol, Noto Color Emoji; font-size: 16px;">3.
advances the Internet through informational outreach. </span></span></div>
<div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><span><span style="color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: system-ui, -apple-system, Segoe UI, Roboto, Helvetica Neue, Arial, Noto Sans, Liberation Sans, sans-serif, Apple Color Emoji, Segoe UI Emoji, Segoe UI Symbol, Noto Color Emoji; font-size: 16px;">ARIN
will continue to utilize an open, transparent multi-stakeholder process for registry policy development. [2]</span></span><br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false">The fact that Hollis and Bill managed the afternoon to get us through the other ten proposals is amazing. At lunch, we had been through two of twelve proposals. Based on that rate of progression, nobody thought we would get
through the rest of the draft proposals, and this was a hot topic in the hallway. So I disagree with you that it was not an issue: it was a clear issue, and Hollis and Bill were able to pull us through. </div>
<div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false">This isn't the first time we've been tight for time on public policy discussion; I seem to recall occasions where we had to move discussion to the list. That almost happened this time, and I think "How we use attendees' time"
especially with regard to public policy is a significant enough issue to bring it to PPML. If I'm alone among the community in this concern, I'll settle down.</div>
<div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false">Thanks again, and always, for an excellent meeting and for facilitating robust discussion of issues that are important to the community.</div>
<div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false">Lee</div>
<div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false">[1] "<span><span style="color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: system-ui, -apple-system, Segoe UI, Roboto, Helvetica Neue, Arial, Noto Sans, Liberation Sans, sans-serif, Apple Color Emoji, Segoe UI Emoji, Segoe UI Symbol, Noto Color Emoji; font-size: 16px;">ARIN
will hold Public Policy and Members Meetings biannually and in person when possible. ARIN’s Annual Meeting is held annually and may coincide with an ARIN Public Policy and Members Meeting. " </span></span><a href="https://www.arin.net/about/corporate/bylaws/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" class="moz-txt-link-freetext" moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.arin.net/about/corporate/bylaws/</a> </div>
<div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false">Excluding Bylaws about Board and AC meetings.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false">[2] <a href="https://www.arin.net/about/corporate/bylaws/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://www.arin.net/about/corporate/bylaws/</a>, Article II, Section 2</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><br>
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<div><br>
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<div id="ydp17f3c516yahoo_quoted_0453992447" class="ydp17f3c516yahoo_quoted">
<div style="font-family:'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px;color:#26282a;">
<div>On Friday, October 25, 2024 at 10:53:21 AM EDT, John Curran <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:jcurran@arin.net" moz-do-not-send="true">
<jcurran@arin.net></a> wrote: </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div id="ydp17f3c516yiv2644578249">
<div>
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<blockquote type="cite">
<div id="ydp17f3c516yiv2644578249yqtfd99602" class="ydp17f3c516yiv2644578249yqt7718783705">
<div>On Oct 24, 2024, at 6:36 PM, Lee Howard via ARIN-PPML <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:arin-ppml@arin.net" moz-do-not-send="true">
<arin-ppml@arin.net></a> wrote:</div>
<br class="ydp17f3c516yiv2644578249Apple-interchange-newline" clear="none">
<div>
<div>
<div style="font-family:times new roman, new york, times, serif;font-size:16px;" class="ydp17f3c516yiv2644578249yahoo-style-wrap">
<div dir="ltr">In the spirit of offering constructive feedback, I would like to describe what I would like to see at ARIN Public Policy meetings.</div>
<div dir="ltr"><br clear="none">
</div>
<div dir="ltr">Broadly, the purpose of the Public Policy Meetings is to discuss policy and policy proposals. The purpose of the Members Meeting is to provide the Members with information about the operation of the organization, especially as it will help guide
governance, including elections.</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div id="ydp17f3c516yiv2644578249yqtfd02979" class="ydp17f3c516yiv2644578249yqt7718783705">
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<blockquote type="cite">...</blockquote>
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<div style="font-family:times new roman, new york, times, serif;font-size:16px;" class="ydp17f3c516yiv2644578249yahoo-style-wrap">
<div dir="ltr">I think this organization will better align the work in each meeting with the purpose of the meeting. </div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
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<div>Lee -</div>
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<blockquote style="margin:0 0 0 40px;border:none;padding:0px;">
<div>
<div>Thanks for sending this! I also noted your comment at the microphone that we should never shortchange public policy discussions at these meetings—a view that I strongly agree with (and observed that, thanks to Hollis and Chair Sandiford’s excellent moderation,
this was not an issue yesterday).</div>
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<div>
<div>As you are aware, we tended to have a stronger delineation between the Public Policy Meeting and the Members Meeting in the past, and it is true that we could organize that way in the future.
</div>
<div><br clear="none">
</div>
<div>However, I believe there are a few factors to consider before we commit to a strict delineation – </div>
</div>
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</div>
<div>
<div>
<ol class="ydp17f3c516yiv2644578249MailOutline">
<li>In recent years, we’ve been able to “expand the tent” of ARIN members; in other words, members are no longer limited to ISPs and large organizations. Due to changes in membership structure, nearly every customer is now an ARIN member. As such, those participating
in our public policy discussions are largely ARIN members—individuals from organizations that pay fees to support ARIN, receive services from ARIN, and can (if they wish) become general members and participate in ARIN’s governance.
</li><li>We are also in an era where ARIN is engaged in many activities beyond just number resource policy, which have the potential for significant implications for all of ARIN’s customers. For example, topics such as the evolution and deployment of RPKI services,
the current ICP-2 update activities, and our cybersecurity efforts are not public policy per se, but they have equally significant potential impacts on ARIN’s customers. As such, these topics deserve to be informed by feedback from our entire customer community.</li><li>Finally, I note that ARIN is committed to capacity development within the ARIN community—i.e., we aim to improve the knowledge and experience of our entire community. Over time, this has proven to help grow our pool of volunteers who advance to important
roles such as the ARIN AC, the ASO AC, and the ARIN Board of Trustees. Those participating in our meetings presently gain broad exposure to all aspects of ARIN – not just number resource policy development – and I do worry that a strict delineation of the
Public Policy Meeting and the Members Meeting could hinder an important element of cross-pollination that has historically bolstered leadership development from within ARIN’s community. </li></ol>
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<div>
<div>To be clear, I am not saying that a clear distinction between the two aspects of the meeting is no possible, but rather that there are potential downsides that should be considered and balanced against any benefits we hope to achieve by such delineation.</div>
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<div>
<div>Thanks!</div>
<div>/John</div>
<div><br clear="none">
</div>
<div>
<div>John Curran</div>
<div>President and CEO</div>
<div>American Registry for Internet Numbers</div>
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