<html><head><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body style="overflow-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;">John,<div><br></div><div>I’m having trouble squaring this comment with:</div><div><br></div><div><div class="indent-3" style="box-sizing: border-box; padding-left: 2em; margin-bottom: 1.3em;"><h3 id="2-4-local-internet-registry-lir" style="box-sizing: border-box; margin-top: 1.3em; margin-bottom: 0.5rem; font-weight: 500; line-height: 1.2; font-size: 1.575rem; color: rgb(0, 45, 56);">2.4. Local Internet Registry (LIR)</h3><p style="box-sizing: border-box; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; line-height: 1.5;">A Local Internet Registry (LIR) is an IR that primarily assigns IP addresses to the users of the network services that it provides. LIRs are generally Internet Service Providers (ISPs) whose customers are primarily end users and possibly other ISPs.</p></div><div class="indent-3" style="box-sizing: border-box; padding-left: 2em; margin-bottom: 1.3em;"><br><a id="two5" style="box-sizing: border-box; color: rgb(51, 51, 51); caret-color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: system-ui, -apple-system, "Segoe UI", Roboto, "Helvetica Neue", Arial, "Noto Sans", "Liberation Sans", sans-serif, "Apple Color Emoji", "Segoe UI Emoji", "Segoe UI Symbol", "Noto Color Emoji"; font-size: 16px;"></a></div><div><br></div><div>Since the Policy definition of LIR (for better or worse) talks about a requirement to provide network services, wouldn’t that retain said requirement?</div><div><br></div><div>Further, since the term ISP is not defined anywhere in the NRPM, it’s not clear what basis ARIN uses to apply that definition, but I agree that the community should either define or deprecate the term from policy.</div><div><br></div><div>Since either move would involve changing the NRPM text, I think the cleaner solution is to deprecate the term ISP.</div><div><br></div><div>I have no problem with making it clear that ARIN does not consider a registry-only company that does not provide connectivity services an LIR for policy purposes. In fact, I think that’s probably good policy.</div><div><br></div><div>Owen</div><div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div>On Jun 20, 2024, at 12:11, John Sweeting <jsweeting@arin.net> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div><meta charset="UTF-8"><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;"><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">Hello list,<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt;"><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">ARIN would like to call attention to slides 11 – 13 of the Policy Implementation and Experience Report presented at ARIN 53 in Barbados regarding LIR versus ISP.<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt;"><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt;"><a href="https://www.arin.net/participate/meetings/ARIN53/materials/monday/arin53_policyimplementation.pdf" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;">https://www.arin.net/participate/meetings/ARIN53/materials/monday/arin53_policyimplementation.pdf</a><o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt;"><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">ARIN staff is fine with whichever terminology the community prefers to use, but at present considers ISPs to be organizations that provide some form of IP connectivity services and not just address management services. If ISP is replaced with LIR, there will be a change in policy unless care is taken (e.g. section 4 regarding issuance of number resources) to make clear the requirement that organizations may only obtain additional resources from ARIN based on their documented need to use in the provisioning of IP connectivity services.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt;"><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">Thanks,<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">John S.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt;"><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div id="mail-editor-reference-message-container"><div><div style="border-width: 1pt medium medium; border-style: solid none none; border-color: rgb(181, 196, 223) currentcolor currentcolor; border-image: none; padding: 3pt 0in 0in;"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 12pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"><b><span style="">From:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></b><span style="">ARIN-PPML <<a href="mailto:arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;">arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net</a>> on behalf of Tyler O'Meara via ARIN-PPML <<a href="mailto:arin-ppml@arin.net" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;">arin-ppml@arin.net</a>><br><b>Date:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Thursday, June 20, 2024 at 1:13</span><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;"> </span><span style="">PM<br><b>To:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Dale W. Carder <<a href="mailto:dwcarder@es.net" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;">dwcarder@es.net</a>>, Owen DeLong <<a href="mailto:owen@delong.com" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;">owen@delong.com</a>><br><b>Cc:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>PPML <<a href="mailto:arin-ppml@arin.net" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;">arin-ppml@arin.net</a>><br><b>Subject:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Re: [arin-ppml] Feedback Request: Policy ARIN-2024-6: 6.5.1a Definition Update<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">I agree that we should work toward replacing all instances of "ISP" with "LIR"<br>in the entirety of the NRPM, and then retire 6.5.1a. However, my understanding<br>was that for IPv4, ARIN staff considered only LIRs that have a physical network<br>of some kind to be ISPs, and that therefore the 2 terms are not yet treated<br>identically.<br><br>If my understanding is correct, I would propose we replace ISP with LIR<br>everywhere, and just add a requirement to 4.1.8 that the requesting LIR have a<br>physical network presence.<br><br>Tyler<br><br><br>On Thu, 2024-06-20 at 11:33 -0500, Dale W. Carder wrote:<br>> Thus spake Owen DeLong via ARIN-PPML (<a href="mailto:arin-ppml@arin.net" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;">arin-ppml@arin.net</a>) on Thu, Jun 20, 2024<br>> at 02:36:02AM -0700:<br>> > This is unfinished cleanup… The correct solution (IMNSHO) is to eliminate<br>> > the term ISP from the NRPM and replace all occurrences with LIR.<br>> ><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>> > There’s really no place in the NRPM where ISP (or equivalent) occurs that<br>> > would not be better served for policy purposes by being replaced with LIR.<br>><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>> I strongly agree with these points, and also point out that LIR also better<br>> aligns with usage in IETF and IANA.<br>><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>> Dale<br>><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>> > > On Jun 19, 2024, at 20:51, Douglas Camin <<a href="mailto:doug@dougcamin.com" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;">doug@dougcamin.com</a>> wrote:<br>> > ><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>> > > Bill –<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>> > > <br>> > > I made a mistake in my earlier email – LIRs and ISPs *are* generally<br>> > > interchangeable terms. I was confusing it with End Users. Apologies.<br>> > > Notably, ARIN staff wrote a helpful blog post earlier last year pointing<br>> > > out that LIR and ISP is used interchangeably under the NRPM. <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>> > > <br>> > > I’ll rephrase my earlier response:<br>> > > <br>> > > The policy proposal as I see it is looking to add clarity to the existing<br>> > > text. Section 6.5 as a whole uses the terms ISP and LIR at different<br>> > > points. 6.5.1a appears to be there to ensure a reader knows they have the<br>> > > same meaning but used the broader term “document” rather than “section” to<br>> > > indicate the applicability. As a subsection of Section 6.5, a statement<br>> > > that it applies to the “Section” should reasonably indicate the rest of<br>> > > the section it is included in, and no other sections of the document.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>> > > <br>> > > If your feedback is – retire 6.5.1a, move definitions or clarifications to<br>> > > other sections, that is fine as well. We’re here to collect your input,<br>> > > and it is appreciated!<br>> > > <br>> > > Regards –<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>> > > <br>> > > <br>> > > Doug<br>> > > <br>> > > --<br>> > > Douglas J. Camin<br>> > > Member, ARIN Advisory Council<br>> > ><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:doug@dougcamin.com" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;">doug@dougcamin.com</a> <<a href="mailto:doug@dougcamin.com" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;">mailto:doug@dougcamin.com</a>><br>> > > <br>> > > From: William Herrin <<a href="mailto:bill@herrin.us" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;">bill@herrin.us</a> <<a href="mailto:bill@herrin.us" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;">mailto:bill@herrin.us</a>>><br>> > > Date: Wednesday, June 19, 2024 at 9:37</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif;"> </span><span style="font-size: 11pt;">PM<br>> > > To: Douglas Camin <<a href="mailto:doug@dougcamin.com" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;">doug@dougcamin.com</a> <<a href="mailto:doug@dougcamin.com" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;">mailto:doug@dougcamin.com</a>>><br>> > > Cc: PPML <<a href="mailto:arin-ppml@arin.net" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;">arin-ppml@arin.net</a> <<a href="mailto:arin-ppml@arin.net" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;">mailto:arin-ppml@arin.net</a>>><br>> > > Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] Feedback Request: Policy ARIN-2024-6: 6.5.1a<br>> > > Definition Update<br>> > ><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>> > > On Wed, Jun 19, 2024 at 5:23</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif;"> </span><span style="font-size: 11pt;">PM Douglas Camin<br>> > > <<a href="mailto:doug@dougcamin.com" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;">doug@dougcamin.com</a> <<a href="mailto:doug@dougcamin.com" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;">mailto:doug@dougcamin.com</a>>> wrote:<br>> > > > To think about it holistically – for all sections of NRPM aside from<br>> > > > 6.5,<br>> > > > LIRs and ISPs have distinct differences. Inside of Section 6.5, anywhere<br>> > > > it references an LIR, that policy also applies to an ISP. This policy<br>> > > > changes the word “Document” to “Section” to ensure there is no confusion<br>> > > > about that.<br>> > ><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>> > > Hi Doug,<br>> > ><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>> > > Well I sure don't like that plan.<br>> > ><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>> > > IMO, the proposed change just makes it more confusing. "Section"<br>> > > means... which section? Why should the reader understand it to mean<br>> > > section 6.5? Why not section 6?<br>> > ><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>> > > But that's not the biggest issue. Folks should be able to skip from<br>> > > section to section and understand the terms "LIR" and "ISP" to mean<br>> > > the same thing there that they do everywhere else. You're telling me<br>> > > that 6.5.1.a intends to morph the terms to a different meaning for<br>> > > section 6.5. That's bad. Really bad. Don't do that.<br>> > ><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>> > > Now that you call my attention to it, I think I'd like to see section<br>> > > 6.5.1 retired, any relevant terminology moved to section 2 where it<br>> > > belongs, and any text whose use of words is inharmonious with the rest<br>> > > of the document revised. And not necessarily in section 6.5 - we<br>> > > probably should be considering LIRs and ISPs to be the same thing<br>> > > elsewhere too.<br>> > ><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>> > > I'm curious: where in the NRPM is LIR and ISP not, for the purposes of<br>> > > ARIN policy, the same thing?<br>> > ><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>> > > Regards,<br>> > > Bill Herrin<br>> > ><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>> > ><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>> > > p.s. 6.5.2.b is also poorly written. If I didn't already know what the<br>> > > nibble boundary is, it'd leave me scratching my head. Need simpler<br>> > > words along with enough context for a reader to gain a basic<br>> > > understanding of why it matters.<br>> > ><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>> > > "A nibble is half a byte: 4 bits. A nibble boundary in a netmask is<br>> > > where the number of bits in the mask is evenly divisible by 4.<br>> > ><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>> > > Nibble-based address delegation boundaries serve IPv6 in two ways:<br>> > > First, each written digit of an IPv6 address is exactly 4 bits.<br>> > > Second, the ip6.arpa reverse-DNS domain is engineered for<br>> > > nibble-boundary delegation."<br>> > ><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>> > ><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>> > > --<br>> > > William Herrin<br>> > ><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:bill@herrin.us" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;">bill@herrin.us</a> <<a href="mailto:bill@herrin.us" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;">mailto:bill@herrin.us</a>><br>> > ><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="https://bill.herrin.us/" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;">https://bill.herrin.us/</a><br>> > > <<a href="https://bill.herrin.us/" style="color: blue; 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font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;"><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>if you experience any issues.</span><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;"></div></blockquote></div><br></div></body></html>