<html><head><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body style="overflow-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;">This is unfinished cleanup… The correct solution (IMNSHO) is to eliminate the term ISP from the NRPM and replace all occurrences with LIR.<div><br></div><div>There’s really no place in the NRPM where ISP (or equivalent) occurs that would not be better served for policy purposes by being replaced with LIR.</div><div><br></div><div>Owen</div><div><br id="lineBreakAtBeginningOfMessage"><div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div>On Jun 19, 2024, at 20:51, Douglas Camin <doug@dougcamin.com> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div><meta charset="UTF-8"><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;"><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">Bill –<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt;"><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">I made a mistake in my earlier email – LIRs and ISPs *are* generally interchangeable terms. I was confusing it with End Users. Apologies. Notably, ARIN staff wrote a helpful blog post earlier last year pointing out that LIR and ISP is used interchangeably under the NRPM. <o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt;"><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">I’ll rephrase my earlier response:<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt;"><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">The policy proposal as I see it is looking to add clarity to the existing text. Section 6.5 as a whole uses the terms ISP and LIR at different points. 6.5.1a appears to be there to ensure a reader knows they have the same meaning but used the broader term “document” rather than “section” to indicate the applicability. As a subsection of Section 6.5, a statement that it applies to the “Section” should reasonably indicate the rest of the section it is included in, and no other sections of the document.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt;"><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">If your feedback is – retire 6.5.1a, move definitions or clarifications to other sections, that is fine as well. We’re here to collect your input, and it is appreciated!<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt;"><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">Regards –<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt;"><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt;"><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">Doug<o:p></o:p></span></div><div><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">--<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">Douglas J. Camin<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">Member, ARIN Advisory Council<o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><a href="mailto:doug@dougcamin.com" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;">doug@dougcamin.com</a></span><span style="font-size: 11pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt;"><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div id="mail-editor-reference-message-container"><div><div style="border-width: 1pt medium medium; border-style: solid none none; border-color: rgb(181, 196, 223) currentcolor currentcolor; border-image: none; padding: 3pt 0in 0in;"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 12pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"><b><span style="">From:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></b><span style="">William Herrin <<a href="mailto:bill@herrin.us" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;">bill@herrin.us</a>><br><b>Date:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Wednesday, June 19, 2024 at 9:37</span><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;"> </span><span style="">PM<br><b>To:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Douglas Camin <<a href="mailto:doug@dougcamin.com" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;">doug@dougcamin.com</a>><br><b>Cc:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>PPML <<a href="mailto:arin-ppml@arin.net" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;">arin-ppml@arin.net</a>><br><b>Subject:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Re: [arin-ppml] Feedback Request: Policy ARIN-2024-6: 6.5.1a Definition Update<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">On Wed, Jun 19, 2024 at 5:23</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif;"> </span><span style="font-size: 11pt;">PM Douglas Camin <<a href="mailto:doug@dougcamin.com" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;">doug@dougcamin.com</a>> wrote:<br>> To think about it holistically – for all sections of NRPM aside from 6.5,<br>> LIRs and ISPs have distinct differences. Inside of Section 6.5, anywhere<br>> it references an LIR, that policy also applies to an ISP. This policy<br>> changes the word “Document” to “Section” to ensure there is no confusion about that.<br><br>Hi Doug,<br><br>Well I sure don't like that plan.<br><br>IMO, the proposed change just makes it more confusing. "Section"<br>means... which section? Why should the reader understand it to mean<br>section 6.5? Why not section 6?<br><br>But that's not the biggest issue. Folks should be able to skip from<br>section to section and understand the terms "LIR" and "ISP" to mean<br>the same thing there that they do everywhere else. You're telling me<br>that 6.5.1.a intends to morph the terms to a different meaning for<br>section 6.5. That's bad. Really bad. Don't do that.<br><br>Now that you call my attention to it, I think I'd like to see section<br>6.5.1 retired, any relevant terminology moved to section 2 where it<br>belongs, and any text whose use of words is inharmonious with the rest<br>of the document revised. And not necessarily in section 6.5 - we<br>probably should be considering LIRs and ISPs to be the same thing<br>elsewhere too.<br><br>I'm curious: where in the NRPM is LIR and ISP not, for the purposes of<br>ARIN policy, the same thing?<br><br>Regards,<br>Bill Herrin<br><br><br>p.s. 6.5.2.b is also poorly written. If I didn't already know what the<br>nibble boundary is, it'd leave me scratching my head. Need simpler<br>words along with enough context for a reader to gain a basic<br>understanding of why it matters.<br><br>"A nibble is half a byte: 4 bits. A nibble boundary in a netmask is<br>where the number of bits in the mask is evenly divisible by 4.<br><br>Nibble-based address delegation boundaries serve IPv6 in two ways:<br>First, each written digit of an IPv6 address is exactly 4 bits.<br>Second, the ip6.arpa reverse-DNS domain is engineered for<br>nibble-boundary delegation."<br><br><br>--<br>William Herrin<br><a href="mailto:bill@herrin.us" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;">bill@herrin.us</a><br><a href="https://bill.herrin.us/" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;">https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fbill.herrin.us%2F&data=05%7C02%7C%7C352a22489a6d42c7f99808dc90c998b5%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C638544442722994139%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=R%2FHUv7OIQ1iBweMlBe4NjLulKgTEzDkAX0a7tvu%2FelI%3D&reserved=0</a><o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div></div></div><span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); 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