<div dir="auto"><div><br><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Wed, 21 Feb 2024, 12:30 Owen DeLong, <<a href="mailto:owen@delong.com">owen@delong.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="auto"><div dir="ltr"></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br><blockquote type="cite">On Feb 21, 2024, at 07:20, Fernando Frediani <<a href="mailto:fhfrediani@gmail.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">fhfrediani@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br><br></blockquote></div><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr">

  
    
  
  
    <p>Hi<br>
    </p>
    <p>This rather seems to be a vague assumption as you didn't provide
      anything substantial for it to be a blocker to have a policy
      adjusted in order to contemplate only new entrants.<br>
      Why is it bad ? Do you think it is still rational to keep
      supplying IP addresses to those who already have some in detriment
      to those who have nothing ?</p></div></blockquote>I think any legitimate use of IPv4 addresses is no more or less worthy than any other. I see no reason to elevate theoretical new entrants to the point of depriving existing legitimate users.</div></blockquote></div></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto"></div><div dir="auto">Oh yes, those who have already can never make a better usage of what they already have and really justify for more IP addresses (that don't exist) in detriment of newcomers ?</div><div dir="auto">There are countless ways to always better use of what one already has and it sounds very unreasonable to continue assigning more addresses to these organizations in times of exahustion. Need to balance things correctly, face reality and be reasonable given the current scenario.</div><div dir="auto"><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="auto"><div><br></div><div>IPv4 is an obsolete technology. Preserving an IPv4 free pool against legitimate demand to facilitate latecomers and laggards failure to deploy IPv6 is simply not in the overall best interests of the internet. <br></div></div></blockquote></div></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Well, that's another discussion. Newcomers don't have any and cannot do anything without a minimal IPv4 even if they prefectly deploy IPv6.</div><div dir="auto">Trying to force things only towards IPv6 ignoring the practical side sounds more like ideology.</div><div dir="auto"><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="auto"><div><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr">
    <p>This is not unenforceable and just a supposition unsupported by
      real data. ARIN has means to develop ways to check these newer
      organizations and separate the possible fraudsters from the legit
      ones. Just before there it serves to inhibit a lot of organization
      to even request IPs under the waitlist making it much cleaner and
      fair. LACNIC has been doing it for years and it has proven to be
      successful in terms of fairness and possibility to check these
      organization requests correctly. Are we going to avoid having a
      policy which is the right thing to do just on the supposition that
      there will be fraud ?</p></div></blockquote><div><br></div>While I stayed that the process in question was morally equivalent to fraud, it is 100% legal and utterly indistinguishable from a legitimate new entrant. </div><div><br></div><div>The policy you are proposing is not only the wrong thing to do (see above), it is also quite trivially worked around. One can legitimately spin up an organization for a few hundred dollars and a few hours of work. </div></div></blockquote></div></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">That's a theory you have without knowing ARIN tools and possibilities.</div><div dir="auto">Again, it doesn't matter much the theoretical possibilities. There will always be unlimited. What matters most is to have as a policy what is correct, fair and in the interest of community.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">It is the interest of community that more organizarions and consequently users can connect to the Internet, develop new business and make up new technology and it is fair to think to make things to keep fitting newcomers to this industry.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Fernando</div><div dir="auto"><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="auto"><div><br></div><div>ARIN can prevent the recording of that organization’s subsequent acquisition in the ARIN database, but that’s about all that ARIN can do. </div><div><br></div><div>Owen</div><div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr">
    <p>Fernando<br>
    </p>
    <div>On 21/02/2024 04:13, Owen DeLong via
      ARIN-PPML wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite">
      
      Anyone using IP to conduct business should recognize that IPv4 is
      out and they’ll need IPv6 to do business going forward.
      <div><br>
      </div>
      <div>I oppose Fernando’s idea that the waitlist should be limited
        to new entrants. In addition to being bad policy, this is
        completely unenforceable and only leads to widespread
        workarounds (which are morally equivalent to fraud but probably
        don’t quite fit the legal definition of the term). (The cost to
        spin up an organization to acquire resources and then acquire
        the organization is trivial compared to the value of the IPv4
        resources obtained).</div>
      <div><br>
      </div>
      <div>Owen</div>
      <div><br>
      </div>
      <div>
        <div>
          <blockquote type="cite">
            <div>On Feb 20, 2024, at 19:28, Denis Motova
              <a href="mailto:dmotova@brcrude.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"><dmotova@brcrude.com></a> wrote:</div>
            <br>
            <div>
              
              <div style="line-break:after-white-space">
                <div>
                  <div>
                    <div>
                      <div>Owen:</div>
                      <div><br>
                      </div>
                      <div>I appreciate your thoughtful and constructive
                        suggestion.</div>
                      <div><br>
                      </div>
                      <div>There are a couple of factors at play here
                        that I'd like to address directly, if possible:</div>
                      <div><br>
                      </div>
                      <div>Regarding the Existing Waiting List - I'm
                        uncertain about the rationale behind altering
                        the current waiting list and applying new
                        criteria to members who have already been
                        approved. I believe any new policy should not
                        retroactively affect those who have already
                        undergone approval. Approved members should
                        continue to receive the resources they were
                        initially granted based on their justification
                        until such point as new users are added under
                        the new policy (after its approval) and its
                        updated distribution methods are implemented.</div>
                      <div><br>
                      </div>
                      <div>As for the New Policy for Future Applicants -
                        Future applicants may be required to select from
                        a /22, /23, or /24 allocation, with the decision
                        weighted based on the considerations Owen has
                        mentioned regarding the allocation of new
                        resources.</div>
                      <div><br>
                      </div>
                      <div>I support the sentiments expressed by
                        Fernando Frediani; there should be a reasonable
                        approach that balances the need to avoid
                        impacting the size of routing tables while still
                        providing users with the flexibility they
                        require to conduct business rather than treating
                        IPs as a hobby.</div>
                      <div><br>
                      </div>
                      <div>Thanks again,</div>
                      <div>Denis</div>
                    </div>
                  </div>
                </div>
                <div><br>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <div><br>
                    <blockquote type="cite">
                      <div>On 20 Feb 2024, at 21:53, Owen DeLong
                        <a href="mailto:owen@delong.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"><owen@delong.com></a> wrote:</div>
                      <br>
                      <div>
                        <div style="line-break:after-white-space">
                          <div>How about this:</div>
                          <div><br>
                          </div>
                          <div>Each waitlist recipient specifies a
                            desired block size and a minimum acceptable
                            block size. Wait list recipients can change
                            their minimum acceptable block size at any
                            time so long as it is no shorter than their
                            originally approved block size.</div>
                          <div><br>
                          </div>
                          <div>When ARIN receives a block to fulfill a
                            waitlist request, the first waitlister in
                            line with a minimum acceptable block size ≥
                            the available block size gets it.</div>
                          <div><br>
                          </div>
                          <div>In other words, let’s say we have the
                            following waitlist:</div>
                          <div><br>
                          </div>
                          <div>Party<span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>Approved<span style="white-space:pre-wrap">
</span>Minimum acceptable</div>
                          <div>A<span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>/23<span style="white-space:pre-wrap">
</span>/23</div>
                          <div>B<span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>/22<span style="white-space:pre-wrap">
</span>/23</div>
                          <div>C<span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>/22<span style="white-space:pre-wrap">
</span>/24</div>
                          <div>D<span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>/24<span style="white-space:pre-wrap">
</span>/24</div>
                          <div>E<span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>/22<span style="white-space:pre-wrap">
</span>/23</div>
                          <div>F<span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>/22<span style="white-space:pre-wrap">
</span>/24</div>
                          <div><br>
                          </div>
                          <div><br>
                          </div>
                          <div>Let’s say ARIN receives a /24. The first
                            /24 would go to party C.</div>
                          <div>If ARIN then received another /24, it
                            would go to party D.</div>
                          <div>If ARIN then received a /22, Parties A
                            and B would receive a /23 each.</div>
                          <div><br>
                          </div>
                          <div>Owen</div>
                          <div><br>
                          </div>
                          <div>
                            <div><br>
                              <blockquote type="cite">
                                <div>On Feb 16, 2024, at 17:01, Denis
                                  Motova <a href="mailto:dmotova@brcrude.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"><dmotova@brcrude.com></a>
                                  wrote:</div>
                                <br>
                                <div>
                                  <div style="line-break:after-white-space">
                                    <div>
                                      <div>Dear Scott,</div>
                                      <div><br>
                                      </div>
                                      <div>I appreciate the innovative
                                        perspective and thorough thought
                                        process you've articulated in
                                        your email.</div>
                                      <div><br>
                                      </div>
                                      <div>There are a couple of points
                                        I'd like to highlight:</div>
                                      <div><br>
                                      </div>
                                      <div>The new policy shouldn’t be
                                        retroactive, it should be only a
                                        policy going forward. I mention
                                        it only because I think it’s
                                        important to make that
                                        distinction clear.</div>
                                      <div><br>
                                      </div>
                                      <div>Secondly, I find your
                                        proposed approach in the second
                                        paragraph intriguing. It's far
                                        more nuanced than simply
                                        restricting everyone to a
                                        maximum of a /24. I believe
                                        you're onto something promising
                                        here, and it could serve as a
                                        sensible strategy moving
                                        forward.</div>
                                      <div><br>
                                      </div>
                                      <div>Regarding the issue of
                                        "time," it's important to
                                        acknowledge the existence of a
                                        secondary market for IPs. If
                                        there's significant pressure,
                                        purchasing IPs should be
                                        considered a viable option
                                        rather than solely relying on
                                        expedited access through the
                                        waiting list. Maintaining a
                                        balance is key; those with
                                        urgent needs can acquire IPs
                                        through purchase, while others
                                        can join the waiting list and
                                        adhere to the traditional
                                        process. Personally, I believe
                                        this approach strikes a fair and
                                        equitable balance.</div>
                                      <div><br>
                                      </div>
                                      <div>-Denis</div>
                                      <div><br>
                                      </div>
                                      <div><br>
                                      </div>
                                    </div>
                                    <div>
                                      <div><br>
                                        <blockquote type="cite">
                                          <div>On 16 Feb 2024, at 21:14,
                                            Scott Leibrand
                                            <a href="mailto:scottleibrand@gmail.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"><scottleibrand@gmail.com></a>
                                            wrote:</div>
                                          <br>
                                          <div>
                                            <div dir="ltr">The point
                                              isn't to "improve the
                                              visual appearance of the
                                              waiting list numbers".
                                              Everyone knows the free
                                              pool is empty except for
                                              the reclaimed dregs, and
                                              we're deciding who should
                                              get how much of the dregs.
                                              The point of this
                                              proposal, limiting the
                                              maximum allocation to /24,
                                              is to allocate smaller
                                              netblocks to organizations
                                              that have been waiting a
                                              shorter amount of time,
                                              instead of making everyone
                                              wait longer while those
                                              with a non-time-sensitive
                                              justification for a larger
                                              block can get one and
                                              those who only need a
                                              smaller block wait in line
                                              longer.
                                              <div><br>
                                              </div>
                                              <div>Another alternative
                                                to limiting everyone to
                                                a /24 would be to
                                                prioritize the waitlist
                                                such that everyone's
                                                place in line is
                                                determined by how long
                                                they've been waiting
                                                divided by how many /24s
                                                they're requesting. So
                                                at any given time, we
                                                might be fulfilling /24
                                                requests that have been
                                                waiting 6 months, /23
                                                requests that have been
                                                waiting a year, and /22
                                                requests that have been
                                                waiting 2 years. (Or 1,
                                                2, and 4 years,
                                                respectively.) That way
                                                no one is penalized for
                                                accepting a smaller
                                                block, and an
                                                organization who can
                                                usefully use a /24 now
                                                and a /24 later gets a
                                                /23 worth of space in
                                                the same amount of time
                                                as someone holding out
                                                for a contiguous /23.</div>
                                              <div><br>
                                              </div>
                                              <div>-Scott<span></span></div>
                                            </div>
                                            <br>
                                            <div class="gmail_quote">
                                              <div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On
                                                Fri, Feb 16, 2024 at
                                                12:56 PM Denis Motova
                                                <<a href="mailto:dmotova@brcrude.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">dmotova@brcrude.com</a>> wrote:<br>
                                              </div>
                                              <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
                                                <div>
                                                  <div>
                                                    <div>Dear William,</div>
                                                    <div><br>
                                                    </div>
                                                    <div>I appreciate
                                                      your message and
                                                      your input.</div>
                                                    <div><br>
                                                    </div>
                                                    <div>I have some
                                                      reservations about
                                                      agreeing with the
                                                      statement you
                                                      made, and I'll
                                                      explain my
                                                      reasoning below:</div>
                                                    <div><br>
                                                    </div>
                                                    <div>I strongly
                                                      believe that there
                                                      are numerous
                                                      legitimate
                                                      businesses
                                                      currently on the
                                                      waiting list
                                                      seeking IP space
                                                      allocations of
                                                      /22, /23, and /24.
                                                      By removing the
                                                      option for these
                                                      allocations, we
                                                      essentially
                                                      transform the
                                                      waiting list into
                                                      what you described
                                                      in a previous post
                                                      as catering to
                                                      "hobbyists and
                                                      speculators." It's
                                                      unlikely that any
                                                      serious company
                                                      would require only
                                                      256 IPs within a
                                                      network; that's
                                                      essentially a
                                                      micro-network.</div>
                                                    <div><br>
                                                    </div>
                                                    <div>As you are
                                                      aware, there are
                                                      multiple avenues
                                                      for obtaining IP
                                                      space, including
                                                      the waiting list
                                                      and authorized
                                                      purchase methods.
                                                      From my
                                                      perspective, if a
                                                      business urgently
                                                      needs IP space,
                                                      they would likely
                                                      follow the example
                                                      of AWS and invest
                                                      in acquiring the
                                                      necessary
                                                      resources rather
                                                      than wait through
                                                      the waiting list.</div>
                                                    <div><br>
                                                    </div>
                                                    <div>For instance,
                                                      one of our
                                                      customers acquired
                                                      a /17 by
                                                      purchasing it from
                                                      the market after
                                                      providing
                                                      justifications to
                                                      ARIN for the IP
                                                      space. While this
                                                      involved a
                                                      significant
                                                      financial
                                                      investment, it
                                                      demonstrated the
                                                      seriousness of
                                                      their business
                                                      needs.</div>
                                                    <div><br>
                                                    </div>
                                                    <div>I fail to see
                                                      the value in
                                                      limiting
                                                      everyone's network
                                                      size solely to
                                                      improve the visual
                                                      appearance of the
                                                      waiting list
                                                      numbers.</div>
                                                    <div><br>
                                                    </div>
                                                    <div>Thank you once
                                                      again for your
                                                      collaborative
                                                      spirit and
                                                      feedback.</div>
                                                    <div><br>
                                                    </div>
                                                    <div>Sincerely,</div>
                                                    <div>Denis</div>
                                                  </div>
                                                  <div><br id="m_8385613088686531979m_6148248718107934890lineBreakAtBeginningOfMessage">
                                                    <div><br>
                                                      <blockquote type="cite">
                                                        <div>On 16 Feb
                                                          2024, at
                                                          15:52, William
                                                          Herrin <<a href="mailto:bill@herrin.us" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">bill@herrin.us</a>> wrote:</div>
                                                        <br>
                                                        <div>
                                                          <div>On Fri,
                                                          Feb 16, 2024
                                                          at 8:52 AM
                                                          Denis Motova
                                                          <<a href="mailto:dmotova@brcrude.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">dmotova@brcrude.com</a>> wrote:<br>
                                                          <blockquote type="cite">A.
                                                          Decreasing the
                                                          allocation to
                                                          a /24 means
                                                          that new
                                                          allocation<br>
                                                          holders would
                                                          receive a
                                                          minuscule
                                                          network,
                                                          hardly
                                                          sufficient for<br>
                                                          small to
                                                          mid-sized
                                                          deployments.<br>
                                                          </blockquote>
                                                          <br>
                                                          Hi Denis,<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          At this point,
                                                          the wait list
                                                          is for
                                                          hobbyists and
                                                          speculators:
                                                          people<br>
                                                          who can afford
                                                          to wait, which
                                                          a serious
                                                          business
                                                          cannot.<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          Tell me I'm
                                                          wrong.<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          Regards,<br>
                                                          Bill Herrin<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          -- <br>
                                                          William Herrin<br>
                                                          <a href="mailto:bill@herrin.us" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">bill@herrin.us</a><br>
                                                          <a href="https://bill.herrin.us/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">https://bill.herrin.us/</a><br>
                                                          </div>
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                                      </div>
                                    </div>
                                  </div>
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