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Have you looked at the waitlist lately? it's pretty long. Will take
quite a while, and you might get a /24. Can't get anything higher
than a /22, and that only if you lie through your teeth about your
justification.<br>
<br>
It just doesn't strike me as something that's going to materially
affect anybody, not even the people on the waitlist.<br>
<br>
But I still agree that amending the waitlist "Terms" to specifically
exclude leasing would not be a bad thing - after all we also exclude
transfers.<br>
<br>
As for the general market, as David says, that horse has sailed.
There is leasing, it's not going away, nobody has so far outlawed
it, that's a separate subject.<br>
<br>
I know one client who leases addresses to people ON THE WAITLIST so
they can get their businesses working while WAITING for their "free"
addresses. That sounds to me like a net positive....maybe by the
time they get their 'freebie' they'll need BOTH blocks and that's a
great thing.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2023-05-08 7:07 p.m., David Farmer
via ARIN-PPML wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAN-Dau35HQQjN2kzxvPHgVfNW=CSmam2NT2G-T4sFNFCmnKM9A@mail.gmail.com">
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<div dir="auto">It’s easy you you and me to say someone else would
be better off buying a /24 at ~$10K on the transfer market, than
leasing it from their transit provider or a third party. I tend
to agree with that, but it’s not my money, so maybe my opinion
doesn’t matter.</div>
<div><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, May 8, 2023 at 20:36
Michael B. Williams <<a
href="mailto:Michael.Williams@glexia.com"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">Michael.Williams@glexia.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
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<div dir="auto">I don’t believe third party leasing at a /24
or higher is in anyone’s best interest expect IP brokers
and those obtaining IP resources with the intent to
resell.</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">I’m not against portability but if a
participant wants portability they’d need a /24 or higher.
Aquire their own IP resources…</div>
<div><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, May 8, 2023 at
21:30 David Farmer via ARIN-PPML <<a
href="mailto:arin-ppml@arin.net" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">arin-ppml@arin.net</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px
0px
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<div dir="auto">At one time you couldn’t take your
Telephone number with you provider to provider,
those rules were changed, because it was in the
telephone consumer’s interest. </div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">Can you consider that maybe it is in
the Internet consumer’s to make some changes to the
IPv4 address leasing rules at this time. I’m not
suggesting full Internet address portability, but
allowing 3rd party leasing especially at the /24
level could be beneficial to the Internet consumer’s
interest, at least in my opinion.</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">There are bigger picture issues at
play in this conversation, should they win the day,
maybe not, but dismissing them out of had isn’t a
good idea either.</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">Thanks. </div>
<div><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, May 8,
2023 at 20:06 Fernando Frediani <<a
href="mailto:fhfrediani@gmail.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">fhfrediani@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
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<div>
<div>On 08/05/2023 21:54, David Farmer wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="auto"><clip></div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">In my opinion, your very
technical definition of leasing is an
anachronism. The reality is if you
want/need more than a /29 of addresses,
and you don’t already have them, you will
need to pay for them one way or another on
top of your transit bandwidth, through the
transfer market, leasing them from your
transit provider, or leasing them from a
3rd party, this is today’s reality, like
it or not.</div>
</blockquote>
<p>Getting it from the transit provider who is
building Internet infrastructure and
providing connectivity is fine, has always
been. Getting from a 3rd party who is just
speculating around IP space and not
interested in building any Internet stuff
not. It does not matter what reality may be
happening in some places, if that is wrong
it does not make it look right because some
are doing and find that a normal thing
because it fits to their commercial needs.
Is Congress willing to change law to make
crimes in the top of list not to be a crime
anymore because that is happening more
often?<br>
You are only authorized to trade with what
you bought and own.<br>
</p>
<p>Fernando<br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">Thanks </div>
<div><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On
Mon, May 8, 2023 at 18:23 Fernando
Frediani <<a
href="mailto:fhfrediani@gmail.com"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">fhfrediani@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0px 0px 0px
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<div>
<p>Hi Willian. A customer who holds
an ASN and is a ARIN member should
not get IP space to announce with
their own ASN from the ISP
provider but directly with ARIN in
all cases.<br>
Legal risk will always exists and
it is not because it exists it
should not be taken, just need to
evaluated and worked.<br>
</p>
<p>There has been a proposal
presented not much a while ago
that intended to get that
separation better worded and which
was still in the process of
getting feedback and improvements,
but AC quickly dismissed it in a
questionable way despite there has
been people interested in
discussing and improving it. A
pity. There has not even been a
chance to get a improved text in
that sense.<br>
And honestly there will always be
some way someone will find out to
try to circumvent rules and I
don't think there will be a
perfect text, but a reasonable one
that can cover most scenarios can
play a important role in reducing
scenarios where resources can be
misused.<br>
</p>
<div>On 08/05/2023 19:45, William
Herrin wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre style="font-family:monospace">On Mon, May 8, 2023 at 3:26 PM Fernando Frediani <a href="mailto:fhfrediani@gmail.com" style="font-family:monospace" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"><fhfrediani@gmail.com></a> wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre style="font-family:monospace">Another thing which many here are targeting about IP leasing
in the sense of renting, speculation made by those who don't
build or offer any Internet infrastructure and services. In other
words someone holding IP space and not using it to build any
Internet infrastructure and services.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre style="font-family:monospace">Hi Fernando,
You may be missing my point. How do you differentiate in policy between:
Scenario 1: ISP A provides a T1 and a /24. ISP B provides a gigabit
ethernet. Customer routes with BGP on both but depreferences ISP A so
it never shows up in the Internet BGP tables.
Scenario 2: Pretextual ISP C (the defacto address leaser) provides a
/24 and a VPN (or virtual machine other nil-cost transit consuming
mechanism). ISP D provides a gigabit ethernet. Customer routes with
BGP on both but depreferences ISP C so it never shows up in the
Internet BGP tables.
Scenario 1 is considered reasonable and has been for the entire
lifetime of the RIRs.
Scenario 2 is the objectionable address leasing arrangement with a
tiny bit of fluff to bring it into technical compliance with ARIN
policy.
You can't tell ARIN to just exercise their judgement whether something
is defacto leasing. That creates legal risk to the organization where
they can't effectively act against the people they "know" to be
leasers.
You have to write a policy that outright breaks scenario #2 without
harming scenario #1.That's the utilization count approach. ISP A in
scenario #1 is not particularly bothered if ARIN gets a bee in their
bonnet about counting that /24 utilized. So they have to be at 81%
instead of 80%. Same difference.
ISP C in scenario #2, that's their entire business. If ARIN counts it
unutilized, they're out of business.
Get it?
Regards,
Bill Herrin
</pre>
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data-smartmail="gmail_signature">===============================================<br>
David Farmer <a
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Networking & Telecommunication
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Networking & Telecommunication Services<br>
Office of Information Technology<br>
University of Minnesota <br>
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target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">2218
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David Farmer <a
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moz-do-not-send="true">Email:farmer@umn.edu</a><br>
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<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
Ron Grant
Balan Software/Networks
Network Architecture & Programming
604-737-2113
ca.linkedin.com/in/obiron</pre>
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