<div dir="auto">ERX: Early Registration Transfers mostly happened a long time ago or shortly after LACNIC and AFRINIC were created. See the following;</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto"><div><a href="https://www.arin.net/vault/participate/meetings/reports/ARIN_X/PDF/erx.pdf">https://www.arin.net/vault/participate/meetings/reports/ARIN_X/PDF/erx.pdf</a></div><br></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sat, Aug 6, 2022 at 17:24 Ted Mittelstaedt <<a href="mailto:tedm@ipinc.net">tedm@ipinc.net</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204)">Once more, nobody cares about those because they are _in use_.<br>
<br>
Interesting that there's a handful of legacy space in other RIRs. I <br>
hadn't thought about transfers. However I don't believe transfers<br>
can happen unless they sign an LSRA so they are "in the system" at that<br>
point.<br>
<br>
Ted<br>
<br>
On 8/6/2022 2:19 PM, Mike Burns wrote:<br>
> Just a point of clarification.<br>
> ARIN is not the only RIR with legacy blocks.<br>
> Check ARIN ERX Transfers.<br>
> Every RIR has them, and has similar policies regarding them.<br>
> There are some significant differences related to transfers of legacy space.<br>
> <br>
> Regards,<br>
> Mike<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> ------- Original Message -------<br>
> *From :* Ted Mittelstaedt[mailto:<a href="mailto:tedm@ipinc.net" target="_blank">tedm@ipinc.net</a>]<br>
> *Sent :* 8/6/2022 4:10:28 PM<br>
> *To :* <a href="mailto:lee@dilkie.com" target="_blank">lee@dilkie.com</a>; <a href="mailto:pmcnary@cameron.net" target="_blank">pmcnary@cameron.net</a><br>
> *Cc :* <a href="mailto:arin-ppml@arin.net" target="_blank">arin-ppml@arin.net</a><br>
> *Subject :* RE: Re: [arin-ppml] ARIN actions regarding address blocks <br>
> with no valid POCs (was: Re: Deceased Companies?)<br>
> <br>
> Nobody not even me is suggesting that. What I am saying is that the<br>
> ARIN community has that power.<br>
> <br>
> Ted<br>
> <br>
> On 8/6/2022 11:25 AM, Lee Dilkie wrote:<br>
> > The legacy blocks were created and in existence before ARIN took<br>
> > responsibility of them and while ARIN could simply take them all back,<br>
> > with no regard for history, it smacks of "colonialism" to me. You know,<br>
> > where the enlightened civilized folks take property from the savages<br>
> > because they can put it to better use. Those savages aren't even paying<br>
> > tax (arin fees) so really they should have no rights at all.<br>
> ><br>
> > See? That's how history repeats itself.<br>
> ><br>
> > -lee<br>
> ><br>
> > On 2022-08-06 11:45, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:<br>
> >> That is correct which is why John has repeatedly stated that action on<br>
> >> these needs to originate with the community. Essentially the RIR<br>
> >> system's legal support and basis for power is the same as the United<br>
> >> Nations various subcommittees such as WIPO - general consensus among<br>
> >> members.<br>
> >><br>
> >> ARIN is the only RIR that has legacy blocks so this is a unique issue<br>
> >> with just the ARIN RIR. Most of the rest of ARIN such as NRPM is used<br>
> >> as a pattern by the other RIRs.<br>
> >><br>
> >> It is likely that what the community does with regards to the legacy<br>
> >> blocks will have an effect on the "deceased company" issue but the<br>
> >> simple reality with registered blocks, which John has tried to get<br>
> >> people to understand, is that as long as an entity is paying the<br>
> >> renewal fees, while it might be apparent that the block is "on<br>
> >> autopilot" and is not in use/being sat on/etc. and that is incredibly<br>
> >> irritating, the existence of ongoing payments and ongoing claims that<br>
> >> the block is "in use" by the payor and the existence of the original<br>
> >> contract between the entity and the RIR, all of that establishes a<br>
> >> legal right to continue to have the registration, by that entity.<br>
> >><br>
> >> If ARIN acts without consensus among the community, then it<br>
> >> jeopardizes the entire RIR system. We don't want the UN coming in and<br>
> >> taking it all over and the UN doesn't want to do that as long as the<br>
> >> RIR system appears to be functioning on consensus.<br>
> >><br>
> >> The gray line is what constitutes legitimate operations of the RIR and<br>
> >> where is the line between that and operations that cannot happen<br>
> >> without consensus to modify the NRPM. I have argued in the past that<br>
> >> ARIN has enough authority by the NRPM to houseclean - John's statement<br>
> >> a few days ago contradicts that - which means as John said if we want<br>
> >> ARIN to take a broom to the legacy blocks, we have to give them more<br>
> >> authority to do so by modifying the NRPM.<br>
> >><br>
> >> The actual truth is that if the community was united it could revoke<br>
> >> all legacy blocks tomorrow despite whatever legalities people out<br>
> >> there would argue. Ultimately it all comes down to what the major ISP<br>
> >> networks would accept, just because a RIR says a block is assigned to<br>
> >> someone else doesn't mean all the major ISPs are required to adhere to<br>
> >> that. In practice the major ISPs do because they prefer this over the<br>
> >> chaos that would result otherwise, but ultimately all a legacy block<br>
> >> is, is a checkoff in a database in ARIN. Nobody HAS to actually<br>
> >> follow it.<br>
> >><br>
> >> We could vote in power to ARIN to revoke and they could do it. It<br>
> >> would be a hellofa mess and absolutely the wrong thing to do - but the<br>
> >> community absolutely does have the power to do it.<br>
> >><br>
> >> Beyond that, absence of a proposal, it's all talk and no action. So I<br>
> >> guess if I want to see anything done I have to get cracking on a<br>
> >> proposal.<br>
> >><br>
> >> Ted<br>
> >><br>
> >> On 8/4/2022 7:42 PM, Paul E McNary wrote:<br>
> >>> If I understood what John clarified for me earlier in this thread ...<br>
> >>> Many of the Legacy blocks will not be under NPRM and ARIN has to<br>
> >>> tread very carefully on trying to claw these addresses back.<br>
> >>> Many blocks that might be abandoned fall into legacy, especially<br>
> >>> /24's, assigned pre-ARIN.<br>
> >>> As always, many times I understand incorrectly.<br>
> >>><br>
> >>> ----- Original Message -----<br>
> >>> From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" <<a href="mailto:tedm@ipinc.net" target="_blank">tedm@ipinc.net</a>><br>
> >>> To: "John Curran" <<a href="mailto:jcurran@arin.net" target="_blank">jcurran@arin.net</a>><br>
> >>> Cc: "arin-ppml" <<a href="mailto:arin-ppml@arin.net" target="_blank">arin-ppml@arin.net</a>><br>
> >>> Sent: Thursday, August 4, 2022 9:30:36 PM<br>
> >>> Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] ARIN actions regarding address blocks with<br>
> >>> no valid POCs (was: Re: Deceased Companies?)<br>
> >>><br>
> >>>> Ted -<br>
> >>>><br>
> >>>> To my knowledge, the Number Resource Policy Manual (NRPM, i.e.<br>
> >>>> <a href="https://www.arin.net/participate/policy/nrpm/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.arin.net/participate/policy/nrpm/</a> <br>
> <<a href="https://www.arin.net/participate/policy/nrpm/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.arin.net/participate/policy/nrpm/</a>><br>
> >>>> < <a href="https://www.arin.net/participate/policy/nrpm/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.arin.net/participate/policy/nrpm/</a>> <br>
> <<a href="https://www.arin.net/participate/policy/nrpm/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.arin.net/participate/policy/nrpm/</a>>> ) does not presently<br>
> >>>> provide for ARIN performing reclamation of address blocks assigned<br>
> >>>> to an<br>
> >>>> organization that has no valid POCs – it provides that such<br>
> >>>> organizations "will be unable to access further functionalities within<br>
> >>>> ARIN Online” and cannot be receiving organization for a <br>
> reallocation or<br>
> >>>> detailed reassignment. (NRPM 3.6.5 and NRPM 3.7 respectively)<br>
> >>>><br>
> >>><br>
> >>> Technically an org like LT is obtaining a detailed reassignment from<br>
> >>> whatever ISP they are using (most likely, it's a /29) Of course, they<br>
> >>> probably don't even realize or remember that they have a prior<br>
> >>> allocation which according to the NRPM needs valid POCs and also needs<br>
> >>> to meet utilization requirements before they were supposed to get<br>
> >>> their /29<br>
> >>><br>
> >>> But, like I said, they aren't bad people, just likely ignorant of what<br>
> >>> they have. I suspect ARIN could take care of this by directly<br>
> >>> contacting them based on 3.6.5 and 3.7. I also suspect that is the <br>
> case<br>
> >>> for a lot of the abandoned stuff. I do agree it would take a LOT of<br>
> >>> manpower and lacking clear direction from the community to do it is<br>
> >>> probably a big sticking point for ARIN which is why you are hinting a<br>
> >>> policy change is needed.<br>
> >>><br>
> >>>> If you’d like ARIN to take particular action on address blocks with no<br>
> >>>> valid POCs, please propose policy specifying the actions for community<br>
> >>>> consideration and potential adoption.<br>
> >>> As you know, the main reason the POC validation was put into NRPM <br>
> was to<br>
> >>> allow ARIN to require POC validity, so that it would discourage <br>
> spammers<br>
> >>> and other criminals from trying to hide themselves behind fake names if<br>
> >>> they registered blocks, and it would make it possible to alert block<br>
> >>> holders who had bad citizens acting from IPs in their blocks.<br>
> >>><br>
> >>> It was the "license plate" argument, that is, just like a car they are<br>
> >>> using a public resource, so the public has a right to know who they <br>
> are,<br>
> >>> which is why we slap license plates on cars. Even though that really<br>
> >>> pisses off some people.<br>
> >>><br>
> >>> But a secondary reason was to try to get a handle (no pun intended) on<br>
> >>> the extent of the "abandoned resources" problem. Along with validation<br>
> >>> came a requirement for ARIN to report. Well, it's certainly been long<br>
> >>> enough to get some valid data back - could you, John, say now, based on<br>
> >>> that data, what percentage of IPv4 number resources in ARIN are like<br>
> >>> this particular one - they have only invalid POCs and no valid ones?<br>
> >>><br>
> >>> While those resources might not be available for use (as their orgs<br>
> >>> might be using them internally and just not kept up with the reporting<br>
> >>> requirements) if you could give us a percentage, if it's high enough<br>
> >>> it might stimulate the community to support additional requirements for<br>
> >>> having ARIN get a bit more activist on getting these resources back.<br>
> >>><br>
> >>> I sort of liken this to the "abandoned car" issue in a major city. If<br>
> >>> the numbers of abandoned vehicles in a city are below .0001% then the<br>
> >>> population does nothing, but if it increases to .01% or .1% the<br>
> >>> population goes ballistic and starts demanding the city start towing,<br>
> >>> because the public wants it's street parking space back.<br>
> >>><br>
> >>> So the question is, what are we leaving on the table? I think that was<br>
> >>> the thrust behind the very first query on this thread.<br>
> >>><br>
> >>> Frankly I DO think we should seriously consider revoking registrations<br>
> >>> of number blocks that lack valid POCs. In this day and age, asking a<br>
> >>> number block holder to supply a valid POC is the absolute LEAST <br>
> that the<br>
> >>> community can ask. It's not enough to have just a valid street <br>
> address.<br>
> >>> It is after all, year 2022. Having an email address is NOT a <br>
> barrier<br>
> >>> to anyone. If they are a small org they can just duplicate most of the<br>
> >>> info in the main number block into a POC and add a phone number and<br>
> >>> email address. It's not a hardship. If they are large then a street<br>
> >>> address of some main corporate HQ is useless if anyone needs to contact<br>
> >>> an individual about something going on from their IP addresses.<br>
> >>><br>
> >>> Ted<br>
> >>><br>
> >>>> You can find more information on<br>
> >>>> submission of policy proposals here -<br>
> >>>> <a href="https://www.arin.net/participate/policy/pdp/appendix_b/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.arin.net/participate/policy/pdp/appendix_b/</a> <br>
> <<a href="https://www.arin.net/participate/policy/pdp/appendix_b/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.arin.net/participate/policy/pdp/appendix_b/</a>><br>
> >>>> < <a href="https://www.arin.net/participate/policy/pdp/appendix_b/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.arin.net/participate/policy/pdp/appendix_b/</a>> <br>
> <<a href="https://www.arin.net/participate/policy/pdp/appendix_b/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.arin.net/participate/policy/pdp/appendix_b/</a>>><br>
> >>>><br>
> >>>> Thanks!<br>
> >>>> /John<br>
> >>>><br>
> >>>> John Curran<br>
> >>>> President and CEO<br>
> >>>> American Registry for Internet Numbers<br>
> >>>><br>
> >>> _______________________________________________<br>
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</blockquote></div></div>-- <br><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature">===============================================<br>David Farmer <a href="mailto:Email%3Afarmer@umn.edu" target="_blank">Email:farmer@umn.edu</a><br>Networking & Telecommunication Services<br>Office of Information Technology<br>University of Minnesota <br>2218 University Ave SE Phone: 612-626-0815<br>Minneapolis, MN 55414-3029 Cell: 612-812-9952<br>=============================================== </div>