<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class="gmail_quote"><div class="">What Ronald is doing is accusing ARIN of *not* going after people </div><div class="">he suspects aren't following the law, without submitting any actual </div><div class="">evidence to support the accusation. </div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div>No, Ronald is pointing out that ARIN doesn’t have a mechanism to encourage ARIN to investigate whether or not ARIN missed something or made an incorrect assumption in processing an application other than by accusing the applicant of fraud. Ronald isn’t willing to accuse the applicant as he doesn’t have evidence of fraud. He is, instead, suggesting that he believes ARIN staff erred in issuing the resources and attempting through means other than accusing the applicant of fraud (note: fraud is a crime of intent, it requires an intent to deceive as well as a gain from the deception, mere ignorance isn’t sufficient).</div><div><br class=""></div><div>I think Ronald has provided enough evidence for ARIN to investigate its own behavior here, which is what Ronald has requested.</div><div><br class=""></div><div>I agree that we shouldn’t be conducting a witch hunt against the applicant unless there is some evidence that the applicant deliberately defrauded ARIN in their application process.</div><div><br class=""></div><div>Ronald has clearly stated he has no such evidence or belief and that he believes simply that ARIN erred. I do think it is not unreasonable for ARIN to investigate and determine whether it erred or not.</div><div><br class=""></div><div>Owen</div><div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class="gmail_quote"><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">This is McCarthyism resurrected.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">" <span style="color:rgb(24,24,24);font-family:open-sans,sans-serif;font-size:18px;letter-spacing:0.8px" class="">“I have here in my hand a list of 205 [State Department employees] that were known to the Secretary of State as being members of the Communist Party and who nevertheless are still working and shaping the policy of the State Department.”</span></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">We should not stoop to witch hunt allegations without any supporting </div><div class="">evidence being offered. Ronald indicated he couldn't find evidence of </div><div class="">fraud, and thus wasn't willing to file a fraud report. He simply said he </div><div class="">couldn't find evidence that the accused networks and individuals *weren't*</div><div class="">committing fraud, and that it was up to ARIN to demonstrate they weren't </div><div class="">complicit in covering up for the entity. In essence, he's demanding that </div><div class="">ARIN show the world how they go about determining that every company </div><div class="">that has ever applied for number resources is *not guilty* of fraud. </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">We should *never* put the burden of proving innocence on the victim. </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">The burden of proof of guilt should be on the accuser's side to produce. </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">When accusations of fraud are submitted, yes, it's worthy and reasonable </div><div class="">for ARIN to report on the outcome.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">But for Ronald to demand that ARIN reveal the details of how ARIN went </div><div class="">about deciding that every company that ever applied for number resources </div><div class="">was *NOT* breaking the law is a witch hunt. It is a demand to produce proof </div><div class="">of innocence rather than acting on accusation of guilt with evidence to back </div><div class="">up the assertion.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Just as it is not the job of the police to check on what each and every one of </div><div class="">us is doing in our households to make sure we're innocent of all crime, it is not </div><div class="">ARIN's job to ensure every company that ever applied for number resources </div><div class="">is completely innocent of all crime. If there is an accusation of fraud, they should </div><div class="">act on it and investigate it thoroughly. But absent that, if no evidence of fraudulent </div><div class="">behaviour is reported, it should not be incumbent on ARIN staff to justify why they </div><div class="">have not taken action against every company that ever submitted a request to </div><div class="">them.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">I for one do not wish to turn the ARIN region into that level of totalitarian regime.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">When Ronald finds evidence of fraud, he should report it, and ARIN should </div><div class="">investigate it, and report accordingly if fraud is found. </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">But to fire broad-based accusations against the ARIN membership and against </div><div class="">ARIN staff without proof is a bridge too far:</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">" *) How many more memberships are currently sitting on ARIN's books that,</div> as in this case, obviously should never have been there, and what<br class=""> effort, if any, will ARIN now expend to find them and to terminate<br class=""> the memberships involved?"<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">If it's obvious (ie, there is proof of fraud), then why is Ronald unwilling to </div><div class="">file a complaint against the networks in question?</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">He himself admits he can find no evidence of fraud:</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">"I cannot, in all honesty and good conscience, report something as</div> "fraud" where the set of pertinent facts, as I have elaborated them,<br class=""> *do not* suggest that there has been any fraud, deceit, or<br class=""> misrepresentation of any kind, at least not on the part of the member<br class=""> organization in question."<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">So, he cannot accuse the specific network in question of committing </div><div class="">fraud, for there is proof.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">But he is willing to accuse ARIN staff of not finding the very proof he </div><div class="">himself has been unable to find.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">If there is clear evidence of fraud that ARIN is overlooking, and that </div><div class="">evidence can be produced, I might have some sympathy for what Ronald </div><div class="">is demanding. </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">But to simply claim that ARIN staff are incompentent at finding evidence </div><div class="">of fraud when Ronald himself cannot find such evidence is unconscionable,</div><div class="">and I would hope Ronald would have the decency to either produce evidence </div><div class="">to support his claim, or retract it with an apology. </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">It is every bit as unreasonable a demand as if I were to demand that Ronald </div><div class="">produce *proof* he has stopped beating his wife, to use the age-old example. :(</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Thanks!</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Matt</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Regards,<br class="">
Bill Herrin<br class="">
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