<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><br style="font-size: 16px;" class=""><div style="font-size: 16px;"><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Mar 11, 2022, at 11:37, Fernando Frediani <<a href="mailto:fhfrediani@gmail.com" class="">fhfrediani@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class="">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8" class="">
<div class=""><p class="">Scott, the point is that we should not be spending much time and
should dismiss such proposal because although it may not look like
it is willing to change a fundamental thing about IP address usage
based on justification, something that doesn't require to much
debate such obvious it is. Fundamentally we are not dealing with
an irrevocable asset that someone purchased and may dispose or
sell it at he/she wishes, but about a right to use which may be
revoked if used against the rules.<br class="">
Therefore it should not need too much debate to find out that
anyone using this scarce resources, that doesn't belong to anyone
individually MUST always justify for that need.</p></div></div></blockquote>Fortunately for the community, you are not the arbiter of what we do or do not consider in terms of policy proposals and you don’t get to decide what we do or don’t spend time on. Fortunately, you aren’t granted the authority to dismiss a proposal based on your faulty tautological reasoning.</div><div style="font-size: 16px;"><br class=""></div><div style="font-size: 16px;">This is a legitimate proposal. It is being considered by the community, and it is unlikely that the AC will abandon it out of hand simply because you have decreed that it should be so.</div><div style="font-size: 16px;"><br class=""></div><div style="font-size: 16px;">Like it or not, there is value in current IPv4 registrations issued by RIRs today. This value fluctuates as a function of demand for IPv4 addresses and availability of addresses from various sources. Currently, those sources are limited to:</div><div style="font-size: 16px;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>RIR free pools (when such exist, mostly not these days)</div><div style="font-size: 16px;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>Transfers (essentially party A purchasing all or part of party B’s registration and effecting the</div><div style="font-size: 16px;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>transfer of that registration through complex interaction with the applicable RIR(s)).</div><div style="font-size: 16px;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>Leasing from a party that has addresses and/or engages in wholesale leasing of addresses from</div><div style="font-size: 16px;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>fourth parties.</div><div style="font-size: 16px;"><br class=""></div><div style="font-size: 16px;">The first is allowed universally and fits your model of the world. Unfortunately, it is not effective or timely for most businesses these days.</div><div style="font-size: 16px;"><br class=""></div><div style="font-size: 16px;">The second is allowed everywhere except AFRINIC and even in AFRINIC with some bizarre limitations.</div><div style="font-size: 16px;"><br class=""></div><div style="font-size: 16px;">The third is allowed in the RIPE region and common in the APNIC region even though technically prohibited by policy. In the ARIN region, it’s tacitly allowed, but a lessor cannot use their lease customers as justification for acquiring additional space by transfer or from the free pool. The proposal we are discussing would change this.</div><div style="font-size: 16px;"><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div class=""><p class="">There is already a neutral and well established entity tasked to
evaluate those justifications, the RIR, and we all assume they do
this in the most impartial way. And better they do this directlly
with those who are really using the resources, not via a 3rd party
who have financial interest in it.<br class=""></p></div></div></blockquote><div style="font-size: 16px;">Well, yes and no… Mostly, RIRs don’t evaluate most of those justifications. That task is delegated to LIRs for the most part. LIRs are traditionally providers of connectivity and addresses. Traditionally, connectivity cost and addresses were included for free, much the way gas stations with car washes used to include a free car wash when you filled up your tank (though they usually charged slightly more per gallon than gas stations without car washes).</div><div style="font-size: 16px;"><br class=""></div><div style="font-size: 16px;">Now that the gas stations (LIRs) are starting to charge for the car wash (addresses) separately from the gas (connectivity), people want the option of driving down the street to get a cheaper car wash (lessors).</div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div class=""><p class="">
</p><p class="">For those that for a moment believe a lessor may be able to
justify to the RIR that "their clients are really using it" (just
look how absurd this is!), it is a lot simple and removes any
points of doubt to just have any unjustified space to be returned
to the RIR and they, according to the current agreed rules will
re-distribute those addresses to those who are really building
operational networks in a most neutral and fair way, not to those
who are able to pay more for it.</p></div></div></blockquote>So you’re saying that LIRs can’t tell if their customers are really using the addresses they issue to them? A lessor is just an LIR that isn’t providing network services to the same client. It’s not an entirely new model for distribution of addresses, it’s just an unbundling of previously bundled services.</div><div style="font-size: 16px;"><br class=""></div><div style="font-size: 16px;">Your pretense that this is somehow novel or absurd rings hollow.<br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div class=""><p class="">If for some reason a resource holder realizes doesn't need any
addresses anymore there are always the Transfer policies in place.
As long the receiver can justify the need and building networks
ARIN will proceed with the transfer.<br class=""></p></div></div></blockquote>You’re ignoring the existence of an entire class of resource holder who are getting their addresses from LIRs. These resource holders actually hold the majority of the resources issued by RIRs. When they no longer need, the resources revert to the LIR in question, not to an RIR. This is how it currently works with LIRs that also sell network services. This is also how it would work with LIRs that do not (lessors).</div><div style="font-size: 16px;"><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div class=""><p class="">
We do not need 3rd parties making it even more complex something
that can remain simple in the hands of the RIR - and avoids
pretending leasing is a normal and legitimate thing. At the end
that only beneficiaries are the companies who intermediate these
type of business and have financial interest in it, not the
organizations who need IP addresses.<br class=""></p></div></div></blockquote>We already have 3rd parties doing exactly this… Yes, they have the customers locked into an additional service, but that’s a contractual matter that really isn’t relevant to the RIR. I know it’s convenient for your argument if you pretend that LIRs don’t already exist, but that’s not reality. RIRs do not issue the majority of their space to end users. The majority of the space reaches end users via LIRs.</div><div style="font-size: 16px;"><br class=""></div><div style="font-size: 16px;">LIRs that also provide connectivity were a perfectly reasonable model _WHEN_ addresses were essentially free and didn’t show up as a separate billable line item. Now that they do, it makes sense to allow price competition in that line item. You can get your car wash from your gas station for $25+fillup or you can go down the street and get it for $20 without the fillup. <br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div class=""><p class="">
</p><p class="">I don't care that leasing "makes it cheaper" in short time for
those without IP addresses to get some, but only that those who
really justify for those resources do that directly with the RIR
which is the fairer thing to all involved - all the community -
which is the most important. We if let these 3rd parties turn
something unnecessary in something normal we all know where it is
going to end basically because their interest is not a better and
fair distribution of IP addresses to those who really need or who
are building networks, but simple to those who are willing to pay
more.</p></div></div></blockquote>You may not care, but the people who have to pay for the addresses and need them care a great deal. If they didn’t care, then you wouldn’t need to worry about what happens if this policy is implemented because lessors wouldn’t have a useful business model and would disappear. Your idea that all addresses are justified directly to the RIR is absurd in the extreme and ignores that LIRs already exist.</div><div style="font-size: 16px;"><br class=""></div><div style="font-size: 16px;">Owen</div><div style="font-size: 16px;"><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div class=""><p class="">Regards<br class="">
Fernando<br class="">
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Em 11/03/2022 15:43, Scott Leibrand
escreveu:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:CAGkMwz4f_7Uq_7n8xPZBFdZM-aPa+sC8SicBeVd1C1_dmo-jNQ@mail.gmail.com" class="">
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8" class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">It seems that lots of people oppose this policy
based on their assumptions about what it will do to the
economics of the IP address transfer market, but no one is
making those assumptions explicit or describing what exactly
they think would happen if it were passed.
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Right now <a href="https://auctions.ipv4.global/prior-sales" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://auctions.ipv4.global/prior-sales</a>
is showing recent prices of about $55 per IP (to buy them on
the transfer market), up from about $30/IP a year ago.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Right now <a href="https://www.heficed.com/lease-ipv4/" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://www.heficed.com/lease-ipv4/</a>
is quoting $0.50/mo per IP ($546 for 1024 addresses). The data
at <a href="https://www.ipxo.com/blog/leasing-vs-buying-ip-addresses/" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://www.ipxo.com/blog/leasing-vs-buying-ip-addresses/</a>
is a bit older, but indicates that in late 2020, prices were
in a similar range of $0.34 - $0.67 per IP.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">If someone buys addresses at $55 each and leases them out
at $0.50/mo, it would take 110 months (9 years) to cover the
cost. That would be a lousy business, so clearly, entities
leasing space are expecting IPv4 purchase prices to continue
rising more quickly than their cost of financing, and expect
to be able to sell any addresses they buy at a profit.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Leasing is clearly already happening. Right now it has to
be done using RIPE space or by an entity that has (at least
nominal) network connectivity.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">If you oppose or support this policy on grounds that it
will affect the supply and demand of addresses, can you be
more specific as to what effects you expect relaxing the
justification requirements for those offering IP leasing who
want to buy more space to lease out would have? How would this
policy affect the demand and price of IPv4 addresses bought
and sold on the transfer market? How would that affect the
supply, demand, and price of IPv4 addresses available for
lease? How would that affect network operators? Would more of
them switch from purchasing addresses to leasing them? With
leasing (currently) being cheaper than purchasing (because a
purchase is also an investment in a currently-appreciating
asset), would it help or hurt network operators for leasing to
be considered a more legitimate option?</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">-Scott</div>
</div>
<br class="">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri, Mar 11, 2022 at 10:02
AM Fernando Frediani <<a href="mailto:fhfrediani@gmail.com" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">fhfrediani@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div class="">
<div class="">On 11/03/2022 14:56, Tom Fantacone wrote:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div style="font-family: Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 17.333332061767578px;" class="">
<div class="">Bill,<br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">We can quibble about semantics, but let's go with
your verbiage:<br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div style="text-align:left" class="">If I run a network and
qualify for an /18 right now, can I go to ARIN and
lease one? I must either <i class="">pay someone to release
their addresses to ARIN to lease to me</i> or lease
one from a (non-ARIN) 3rd party.<br class="">
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
And that should always be the expected, release them to ARIN
which should be the only actor taking care of it.<br class="">
I really fail to understand how can one consider legit that
a 3rd party could be doing this job otherwise.<br class=""><p class="">If everybody sticks that what is expected, things work
better, is much better to trust ARIN to do this plus in
the end doing in such way doesn't least space for
speculation, price rises and community have the assurance
that the one who is intermediating it is someone really
neutral and with no other interests to the business other
than make sure the policies are being followed.</p><p class="">Fernando<br class="">
</p>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div style="font-family: Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 17.333332061767578px;" class="">
<div style="text-align:left" class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div style="text-align:left" class="">And the amount I must pay
(commonly referred to as the Purchase Price in most
IPv4 transfer contracts, whether I'm technically
"buying" it or not), is significantly more than either
typical lease rates or ARIN's annual fees. My point
is that 3rd party lessors do provide a service that
ARIN does not.<br class="">
</div>
<div style="text-align:left" class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div style="text-align:left" class="">Regards,<br class="">
</div>
<div style="text-align:left" class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div style="text-align:left" class="">Tom Fantacone<br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div style="border-top:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);height:0px;margin-top:10px;margin-bottom:10px;line-height:0px" class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div id="gmail-m_7976876151835855449gmail-m_-4808509796066532705gmail-m_-8107556546104187107gmail-m_-968748883022522820gmail-m_-488674295728572883Zm-_Id_-Sgn1" class="">----
On Fri, 11 Mar 2022 12:42:52 -0500 <b class="">William
Herrin <a href="mailto:bill@herrin.us" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true" class=""><bill@herrin.us></a></b>
wrote ----<br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<blockquote style="margin:0px" class="">
<div class="">On Fri, Mar 11, 2022 at 9:40 AM Tom Fantacone
<<a href="mailto:tom@iptrading.com" style="color:rgb(0,0,238)" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">tom@iptrading.com</a>>
wrote: <br class="">
> If I run a network and qualify for an /18
right now, can I got to ARIN and lease one? I must
either buy one on the transfer market <br class="">
<br class="">
Tom, <br class="">
<br class="">
I think you misunderstand the transfer market. You
don't buy addresses <br class="">
on the transfer market. You lease addresses from
ARIN and then pay <br class="">
someone on the transfer market to release their
addresses to ARIN for <br class="">
lease to you. <br class="">
<br class="">
Regards, <br class="">
Bill Herrin <br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
-- <br class="">
William Herrin <br class="">
<a href="mailto:bill@herrin.us" style="color:rgb(0,0,238)" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">bill@herrin.us</a>
<br class="">
<a href="https://bill.herrin.us/" style="color:rgb(0,0,238)" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://bill.herrin.us/</a>
<br class="">
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
</div>
<br class="">
<br class="">
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