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    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 18/03/2022 11:52, Mike Burns wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite"
      cite="mid:060d01d83ad7$d7a05be0$86e113a0$@iptrading.com">
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        <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal">The primary value of the leasing company is
          that they are allowing the effective financing of Ipv4 address
          space through the taking-on of risk in the initial investment.
           Currently there is no vehicle for this, and the result is
          that smaller, newer, less-capitalized companies are required
          to pay in full, up-front, for address blocks. </p>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <p>That's the repeated history brokers have been trying to tell
      organizations that have been facing challenges regarding IPv4
      exhaustion either because they are new in the sector or most
      commonly because they didn't bother to take any other measures to
      deal with the new standard.<br>
      Even newcomers have how to have access to some amounts to work
      with without needing to lease them from an organization who don't
      have justification to keep those addresses. And still brokers who
      have been facilitating IP leasing play the good guys as if there
      was not other options and we as a community who define the rules
      would have to accept it and change the current rules for their own
      benefit, not the community.</p>
    <p>The reality is the IP Leasing increase costs for all (either
      those who lease or transfer), eliminates accountability, increases
      unfainess and still the history if that leasing comes save those
      "poor less capable ones".<br>
    </p>
    <p>This "vehicle" expensive and unnecessary and there are options
      available that not necessarily imposes worsening the whole system
      for few people benefits. </p>
    <p>Fernando</p>
    <blockquote type="cite"
      cite="mid:060d01d83ad7$d7a05be0$86e113a0$@iptrading.com">
      <div class="WordSection1">
        <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal">Unless they lease them from the only
          allowed lessors (per current policy), that is the IPv4-rich
          incumbent owners.<o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal">So if you want to support the little guy, I
          think you should support this policy, but if you want to
          protect those who received address in the past that they no
          longer need, then you should oppose this policy.<o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal">There are many other values the leasing
          company provides, values stemming from skills related to
          reputation, location, hijacking, recovery, and the
          pre-identification of scammers/spammers, and values related to
          the provision of addresses for temporary or seasonal use, or
          to enter markets aggressively which may or may not pay off. As
          the market matures, more value will no doubt be driven by
          competition. Things like lease-to-own options, highly
          efficient web or app-based access to lessors and lessees,
          these are some things that spring to my mind as capabilities
          to distinguish leasing companies from RIRs so as to provide
          the value that the market requires. If there were no value
          provided, why would anybody utilize their services?<o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal">Regards,<o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal">Mike<o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
        <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1
          1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
          <p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> ARIN-PPML <<a
              href="mailto:arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net"
              moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net</a>>
            <b>On Behalf Of </b>Holden Karau<br>
            <b>Sent:</b> Thursday, March 17, 2022 7:29 PM<br>
            <b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:andrew.dul@quark.net"
              moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">andrew.dul@quark.net</a><br>
            <b>Cc:</b> arin-ppml <<a href="mailto:arin-ppml@arin.net"
              moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">arin-ppml@arin.net</a>><br>
            <b>Subject:</b> Re: [arin-ppml] Revised and Retitled - Draft
            Policy ARIN-2021-6: Permit IPv4 Leased Addresses for
            Purposes of Determining Utilization for Future Allocations<o:p></o:p></p>
        </div>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal">Wait so some company could come to ARIN
            and ask for a block of IP addresses using leasing as the
            justification and then turn around and lease them.<o:p></o:p></p>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal">What value is the leasing company
              providing? It seems like a solid way to get a bunch of
              LLCs formed to acquire IP addresses from the waiting list
              and then make money for doing ~nothing.<o:p></o:p></p>
          </div>
        </div>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
        <div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal">On Thu, Mar 17, 2022 at 4:18 PM Andrew
              Dul <<a href="mailto:andrew.dul@quark.net"
                moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">andrew.dul@quark.net</a>>
              wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
          </div>
          <blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC
            1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
            <div>
              <div>
                <p class="MsoNormal">The draft policy as currently
                  written does not provide any additional limits against
                  speculation.  As drafted, it allows any organization
                  (including those who do not operate networks) to
                  obtain IPv4 addresses for the purpose of leasing.  <o:p></o:p></p>
              </div>
              <div>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
              </div>
              <div>
                <p class="MsoNormal">With that policy change what types
                  of limits does the community think would be needed?<o:p></o:p></p>
              </div>
              <div>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
              </div>
              <div>
                <p class="MsoNormal">Thanks,<o:p></o:p></p>
              </div>
              <div>
                <p class="MsoNormal">Andrew<o:p></o:p></p>
              </div>
              <div>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
              </div>
              <div>
                <p class="MsoNormal">On 3/17/2022 3:00 PM, Scott
                  Leibrand wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
              </div>
              <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal">+1 to both Owen and David
                    Farmer's comments. Leasing IPv4 space is likely the
                    best solution for some networks that need those
                    addresses to operate their network. If an
                    organization wants to acquire and lease out IPv4
                    space without providing bundled IPv4 transit, that
                    should be allowed by policy. It might be useful for
                    ARIN policy to try to slightly dampen speculation by
                    requiring that organizations seeking to acquire
                    large blocks of IPv4 space demonstrate that their
                    current holdings are being efficiently used by the
                    organization they're registered to in whois. I am
                    not sure if this policy proposal does that to my
                    satisfaction, but once we ensure it does so, I would
                    likely support it.<o:p></o:p></p>
                  <div>
                    <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
                  </div>
                  <div>
                    <p class="MsoNormal">-Scott<o:p></o:p></p>
                  </div>
                </div>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
                <div>
                  <div>
                    <p class="MsoNormal">On Thu, Mar 17, 2022 at 1:33 PM
                      Owen DeLong via ARIN-PPML <<a
                        href="mailto:arin-ppml@arin.net" target="_blank"
                        moz-do-not-send="true"
                        class="moz-txt-link-freetext">arin-ppml@arin.net</a>>
                      wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
                  </div>
                  <blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid
                    #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                    <div>
                      <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
                      <div>
                        <div>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"
                            style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></p>
                          <blockquote
                            style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                            <div>
                              <p class="MsoNormal">On Mar 16, 2022, at
                                15:22 , Fernando Frediani <<a
                                  href="mailto:fhfrediani@gmail.com"
                                  target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
                                  class="moz-txt-link-freetext">fhfrediani@gmail.com</a>>
                                wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
                            </div>
                            <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
                            <div>
                              <div>
                                <p>Hi David<o:p></o:p></p>
                                <p>If I understand correctly you seem to
                                  have a view that there should be a
                                  ARIN policy to permit IPv4 leasing
                                  just because it is a reality and we
                                  kind of have to accept it in our days.
                                  No we don't, and that's for many
                                  different reasons.<o:p></o:p></p>
                              </div>
                            </div>
                          </blockquote>
                          <p class="MsoNormal">Well, of course, you are
                            free to deny reality as much as you want.
                            Many people do. It’s not particularly
                            helpful in the discussion, however.<o:p></o:p></p>
                        </div>
                        <div>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"
                            style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></p>
                          <blockquote
                            style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                            <div>
                              <p>I am used to see people saying the
                                brokers are doing a good thing for the
                                community by facilitating the things
                                which in reality is the opposite. It may
                                look like a good things, but the real
                                beneficiaries are only them who profit
                                from it without much concern of what is
                                fair or not to most organizations
                                involved.<o:p></o:p></p>
                            </div>
                          </blockquote>
                          <div>
                            <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
                          </div>
                          <p class="MsoNormal">You are actually mistaken
                            here. I used to think as you do, actually. I
                            was very resistant to the first “specified
                            transfer” policies because of some of the
                            reasons you describe. However, what you are
                            failing to recognize is that:<o:p></o:p></p>
                        </div>
                        <div>
                          <p class="MsoNormal">+ Brokers and specified
                            transfers were going to happen with or
                            without the RIRs. If they happened without
                            the RIRs,<o:p></o:p></p>
                        </div>
                        <div>
                          <p class="MsoNormal">there’d be no accurate
                            record of who was using which address space
                            and the provenance of addresses would be<o:p></o:p></p>
                        </div>
                        <div>
                          <p class="MsoNormal">very difficult to support
                            or defend.<o:p></o:p></p>
                        </div>
                        <div>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
                        </div>
                        <div>
                          <p class="MsoNormal">* Benefit to the
                            community from brokers: (ethical) brokers
                            are familiar with the rules in the RIRs in
                            which<o:p></o:p></p>
                        </div>
                        <div>
                          <p class="MsoNormal">they operate and can
                            assist their customers in accurate and
                            compliant registration updates and<o:p></o:p></p>
                        </div>
                        <div>
                          <p class="MsoNormal">aid in keeping the
                            allocation database(s) accurate.<o:p></o:p></p>
                        </div>
                        <div>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
                        </div>
                        <div>
                          <p class="MsoNormal">+ With the economic
                            realities of IPv4 addresses becoming
                            progressively more and more expensive and
                            the advent<o:p></o:p></p>
                        </div>
                        <div>
                          <p class="MsoNormal">of ISPs with limited IPv4
                            resources available, it is inevitable that
                            more and more IP service providers will be<o:p></o:p></p>
                        </div>
                        <div>
                          <p class="MsoNormal">doing one or more of the
                            following:<o:p></o:p></p>
                        </div>
                        <div>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
                        </div>
                        <div>
                          <p class="MsoNormal">+ Separate surcharges for
                            IPv4 addresses<o:p></o:p></p>
                        </div>
                        <div>
                          <p class="MsoNormal">+ Expecting customers to
                            supply their own IPv4 addresses<o:p></o:p></p>
                        </div>
                        <div>
                          <p class="MsoNormal">+ Surcharges for IPv4
                            services<o:p></o:p></p>
                        </div>
                        <div>
                          <p class="MsoNormal">+ IPv4 “installation
                            charges” large enough to cover the
                            procurement of addresses<o:p></o:p></p>
                        </div>
                        <div>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
                        </div>
                        <div>
                          <p class="MsoNormal">* Brokers assist ISPs and
                            customers in many of the above
                            circumstances.<o:p></o:p></p>
                        </div>
                        <div>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
                        </div>
                        <div>
                          <p class="MsoNormal">+ With a variety of
                            organizations holding IPv4 addresses that
                            may or may not even known they have them and
                            whose<o:p></o:p></p>
                        </div>
                        <div>
                          <p class="MsoNormal">IPv4 resources may vastly
                            exceed their needs, it is (arguably)
                            desirable to have those addresses be
                            transferred to parties<o:p></o:p></p>
                        </div>
                        <div>
                          <p class="MsoNormal">that have current need
                            for IPv4 addresses.<o:p></o:p></p>
                        </div>
                        <div>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
                        </div>
                        <div>
                          <p class="MsoNormal">* Brokers provide a
                            valuable service to the community
                            identifying and marketing these resources<o:p></o:p></p>
                        </div>
                        <div>
                          <p class="MsoNormal">* Paid transfers provide
                            an incentive for entities to make more
                            efficient use of the resources they have in
                            order<o:p></o:p></p>
                        </div>
                        <div>
                          <p class="MsoNormal">to monetize the resources
                            they no longer need. Brokers are frequently
                            able to assist in this process.<o:p></o:p></p>
                        </div>
                        <div>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
                        </div>
                        <div>
                          <p class="MsoNormal">+ With the high cost of
                            acquisition, IPv4 addresses have become a
                            capital intensive part of any
                            network-dependent<o:p></o:p></p>
                        </div>
                        <div>
                          <p class="MsoNormal">business model that must
                            support IPv4. Further, there is some risk
                            that this capital outlay may be fore a
                            resource<o:p></o:p></p>
                        </div>
                        <div>
                          <p class="MsoNormal">which will abruptly and
                            quickly lose its value and no longer be
                            needed well before it can be amortized as a
                            capital<o:p></o:p></p>
                        </div>
                        <div>
                          <p class="MsoNormal">expenditure. As such, it
                            may make sense for some entities to transfer
                            that risk to another organization by using<o:p></o:p></p>
                        </div>
                        <div>
                          <p class="MsoNormal">a lease structure instead
                            of purchasing the addresses outright.<o:p></o:p></p>
                        </div>
                        <div>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
                        </div>
                        <div>
                          <p class="MsoNormal">* Brokers that provide
                            IPv4 leasing in an ethical and policy
                            compliant way provide a valuable service<o:p></o:p></p>
                        </div>
                        <div>
                          <p class="MsoNormal">to these businesses. Yes,
                            their price per address may eventually be
                            more than it would have cost<o:p></o:p></p>
                        </div>
                        <div>
                          <p class="MsoNormal">them to purchase the
                            addresses, but the same is true of virtually
                            any rental situation.  On the other hand,<o:p></o:p></p>
                        </div>
                        <div>
                          <p class="MsoNormal">that excess helps offset
                            the risk that the lessor is taking by owning
                            a resource that may or may not remain<o:p></o:p></p>
                        </div>
                        <div>
                          <p class="MsoNormal">valuable and may or may
                            not continue to produce revenue.<o:p></o:p></p>
                        </div>
                        <div>
                          <blockquote
                            style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                            <div>
                              <p>IP Leasing is very different from IP
                                Transfer which I see not problem they
                                continue doing it. IP Transfer at least
                                we have some guarantees that the
                                directly receiving organization really
                                justify for them and that is a quiet
                                important (I would say fundamental)
                                point to look at, because that is fairer
                                to everyone involved. What guarantees we
                                have when a IP Leasing is done in that
                                sense, that fairness start to lack here.<o:p></o:p></p>
                            </div>
                          </blockquote>
                          <p class="MsoNormal">If we set the policies up
                            correctly, we should have the same exact
                            guarantees on a lease.<o:p></o:p></p>
                        </div>
                        <div>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
                        </div>
                        <div>
                          <p class="MsoNormal">If $ISP acquires a /10
                            through transfer and then issues various
                            subordinate prefixes to their customer, the
                            only guarantee<o:p></o:p></p>
                        </div>
                        <div>
                          <p class="MsoNormal">you have that $ISP’s
                            customers who receive the addresses really
                            justify them is that $ISP says so. We
                            generally trust $ISP<o:p></o:p></p>
                        </div>
                        <div>
                          <p class="MsoNormal">to act in good faith.<o:p></o:p></p>
                        </div>
                        <div>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
                        </div>
                        <div>
                          <p class="MsoNormal">If $LESSOR acquires a /10
                            through transfer and then leases various
                            subordinate prefixes to their customers, we
                            have pretty<o:p></o:p></p>
                        </div>
                        <div>
                          <p class="MsoNormal">much the same guarantee
                            with the additional bit that $CUSTOMER is at
                            least willing to pay enough for the
                            addresses to $LESSOR<o:p></o:p></p>
                        </div>
                        <div>
                          <p class="MsoNormal">to make the lease make
                            sense. In general, I think it is somewhat
                            safe to assume that $CUSTOMER is not going
                            to make a<o:p></o:p></p>
                        </div>
                        <div>
                          <p class="MsoNormal">monthly recurring payment
                            to $LESSOR for something they don’t intend
                            to use. If one’s intent is to deprive the
                            market and<o:p></o:p></p>
                        </div>
                        <div>
                          <p class="MsoNormal">inflate the price, then
                            the risk profile for such a transaction is
                            vastly more favorable if you purchase rather
                            than lease.<o:p></o:p></p>
                        </div>
                        <div>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
                        </div>
                        <div>
                          <p class="MsoNormal">Sure, there could be
                            lessors that don’t get reasonable
                            justification for allocations from their
                            customers, but there are most<o:p></o:p></p>
                        </div>
                        <div>
                          <p class="MsoNormal">certainly ISPs in that
                            category as well. Either way, you’ve got
                            very little assurance. A lessor can provide
                            just as much<o:p></o:p></p>
                        </div>
                        <div>
                          <p class="MsoNormal">justification to an RIR
                            for the addresses they will allocate to
                            leases as an ISP can for addresses they will
                            lease to their<o:p></o:p></p>
                        </div>
                        <div>
                          <p class="MsoNormal">customers. The only
                            difference is a lease with connectivity from
                            the same company or a lease from a company
                            other than<o:p></o:p></p>
                        </div>
                        <div>
                          <p class="MsoNormal">the one(s) providing
                            connectivity.<o:p></o:p></p>
                        </div>
                        <div>
                          <blockquote
                            style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                            <div>
                              <p>People see the brokers are doing a
                                favor to organizations in general by
                                facilitating they get some chunks of
                                IPv4, but that in reality makes the cost
                                of IPv4 for both leasing and transfer
                                more and more expensive as it makes
                                organization even more dependent from
                                these <span lang="EN">those crumbs that
                                  seem to be offered with good intention</span> but
                                in reality it is feeding a system that
                                is contrary the interests to most
                                organizations involved.<o:p></o:p></p>
                            </div>
                          </blockquote>
                          <p class="MsoNormal">Just as you are free to
                            mount, balance, and rotate your own tires,
                            or, you can go to a tire store and have them
                            perform that service for a fee, brokers
                            provide a service for a fee. If you want to
                            obtain addresses in the transfer market
                            without a broker, you’re still free to do
                            that. Brokers are not driving the cost of
                            IPv4… The scarcity and difficulty of
                            operating with IPv4 is driving the cost of
                            IPv4. Brokers are along for the ride
                            providing a service and collecting a fee for
                            that service. Whether that fee is reasonable
                            or not is (and should be) entirely in the
                            eye of the customer. Customers are always
                            free to walk away and find a different
                            supplier or look for their addresses
                            independently.<o:p></o:p></p>
                        </div>
                        <div>
                          <blockquote
                            style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                            <div>
                              <p>It may sound a cliche but IPv4 is over
                                and organizations must learn how to
                                survive with what they have, reinvent
                                themselves and make better used of their
                                IPv4 resources, deploy a proper CGNAT,
                                deploy IPv6 either they like it or not,
                                etc. If an organization have so little
                                or none and need some minimal amount is
                                fine they seek for a Transfer of a
                                minimal amount with the help of
                                brokers. <o:p></o:p></p>
                            </div>
                          </blockquote>
                          <p class="MsoNormal">I agree. However, the
                            increasing cost of IPv4 is a natural and
                            organic part of that process and sticking
                            our heads in the sand and pretending that it
                            is not the economic reality of how the
                            current world works will not help anyone.
                            Not the community, not organizations that
                            are short on IPv4 resources, and not the
                            RIRs who are only useful so long as their
                            databases provide a reasonably accurate
                            reflection of the actual utilization of the
                            address space and who controls it.<o:p></o:p></p>
                        </div>
                        <div>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
                        </div>
                        <div>
                          <p class="MsoNormal">A broker is an LIR just
                            like an ISP. Since ISPs are now charging for
                            addresses independent of connectivity and
                            bandwidth, it only makes sense that
                            customers can shop for them separately from
                            different suppliers. Just like you can buy
                            tires for your car from the dealership or
                            from some other store that sells and
                            supports tires, IPv4 addresses are moving
                            that way as well. The RIRs can either
                            recognize this and adapt to it with policies
                            that make sense and preserve some of the
                            things you’ve outlined as concerns above,
                            or, they can simply deny the reality of IPv4
                            leasing and lose track of how addresses are
                            actually managed for some significant chunks
                            of the internet.<o:p></o:p></p>
                        </div>
                        <div>
                          <blockquote
                            style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                            <div>
                              <p>Encouraging IP Leasing as if it were
                                something normal just "because it exists
                                today" is a shot in the foot that in the
                                long term only worsens the existing
                                scenario, it feeds a market without much
                                discretion increasing final prices for
                                everyone and what is the worst of all,
                                creates even more unfairness for
                                everyone who has always submitted to the
                                rules we have until today for
                                distributing addresses to those who
                                really have a real justification to keep
                                control of that resource that does not
                                belong to them.<o:p></o:p></p>
                            </div>
                          </blockquote>
                          <p class="MsoNormal">I don’t believe that a
                            policy that merely allows IPv4 leasing can
                            be said to encourage it. Rather, it permits
                            it, recognizes that it exists and is not
                            going to stop existing just because policy
                            pretends it can’t exist.<o:p></o:p></p>
                        </div>
                        <div>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
                        </div>
                        <div>
                          <p class="MsoNormal">The market is not likely
                            to be significantly swayed by policy in
                            terms of pricing, with the exception that
                            AFRINIC has been able to preserve a devalued
                            price on addresses within their region due
                            to their restrictive lack of a transfer
                            policy for moving addresses to/from AFRINIC.
                            However, while this has the effect of
                            keeping AFRINIC IPv4 addresses less
                            expensive on the open market, it also leads
                            to a significant amount of utilization of
                            those addresses outside of policy and quite
                            a bit of hoarding of addresses by some of
                            AFRINIC’s largest members. ARIN’s counsel
                            has advised against naming names here, so I
                            won’t, but if you want names, contact me off
                            list.<o:p></o:p></p>
                        </div>
                        <div>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
                        </div>
                        <div>
                          <p class="MsoNormal">Owen<o:p></o:p></p>
                        </div>
                        <div>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"
                            style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></p>
                          <blockquote
                            style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                            <div>
                              <p>Regards<br>
                                Fernando<o:p></o:p></p>
                              <div>
                                <p class="MsoNormal">On 16/03/2022
                                  13:09, David Farmer via ARIN-PPML
                                  wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
                              </div>
                              <blockquote
                                style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                                <div>
                                  <div>
                                    <p class="MsoNormal">Yes, bundling
                                      IPv4 addresses with bandwidth is
                                      permitted, and in the past was
                                      common practice, heck even the
                                      expected practice. However, the
                                      fact that IPv4 address demand
                                      isn't decreasing significantly,
                                      the costs to acquire new IPv4
                                      addresses are increasing
                                      significantly, and with the
                                      increasing commoditization of
                                      bandwidth, it is no longer
                                      economically viable to bundle
                                      bandwidth, and its associated
                                      connectivity, with IPv4
                                      addressing. This is driving a
                                      structural separation of
                                      bandwidth, connectivity, and IPv4
                                      addressing, from each other,
                                      instead of bundling them together
                                      as in the past.<o:p></o:p></p>
                                  </div>
                                  <div>
                                    <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
                                  </div>
                                  <div>
                                    <p class="MsoNormal">Let me state
                                      that differently; ISPs are being
                                      driven, buy cost
                                      conscience consumers, to
                                      separate the costs of bandwidth
                                      and the costs of the IPv4
                                      addresses needed to utilize the
                                      bandwidth from each other. 
                                      Minimally this separation is
                                      achieved by accounting for the
                                      costs on separate line items of a
                                      common bill from a single
                                      provider. However, price
                                      competition for bandwidth and IPv4
                                      addresses separately will
                                      inevitably drive a structural
                                      separation between the two.
                                      Consumers will want the best price
                                      they can get for bandwidth and the
                                      best price they can get for IPv4
                                      addresses, regardless of whether
                                      they come from a single provider
                                      or not.<o:p></o:p></p>
                                  </div>
                                  <div>
                                    <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
                                  </div>
                                  <div>
                                    <p class="MsoNormal">Some may argue
                                      this is being driven by the
                                      existence of address brokers, and
                                      their desire to make money, I
                                      disagree. While address brokers
                                      making money is the grease that
                                      keeps this machine working, the
                                      need for the machine is driven by;
                                      IPv4 free pool exhaustion, the
                                      increasing cost of IPv4 addresses,
                                      and the lack of adoption of IPv6.<o:p></o:p></p>
                                  </div>
                                  <div>
                                    <p class="MsoNormal">In other words,
                                      address brokers wouldn't exist if
                                      there wasn't a demand for their
                                      services.<o:p></o:p></p>
                                  </div>
                                  <div>
                                    <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
                                  </div>
                                  <div>
                                    <p class="MsoNormal">In short, the
                                      economic conditions that allowed
                                      for and even encouraged the
                                      bundling of IPv4 addresses with
                                      bandwidth and connectivity no
                                      longer exist, that world is gone.
                                      While I have not personally yet
                                      determined if I support this
                                      particular policy
                                      text, nevertheless, the time has
                                      come to recognize the next step in
                                      this inextricable evolution of
                                      IPv4 address policy by the ARIN
                                      policy community and permit IPv4
                                      leasing.<o:p></o:p></p>
                                  </div>
                                  <div>
                                    <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
                                  </div>
                                  <div>
                                    <p class="MsoNormal">Thanks.<o:p></o:p></p>
                                  </div>
                                  <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
                                  <div>
                                    <div>
                                      <p class="MsoNormal">On Fri, Mar
                                        11, 2022 at 5:05 PM John Santos
                                        <<a
                                          href="mailto:john@egh.com"
                                          target="_blank"
                                          moz-do-not-send="true"
                                          class="moz-txt-link-freetext">john@egh.com</a>>
                                        wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
                                    </div>
                                    <blockquote
                                      style="border:none;border-left:solid
                                      #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                                      <p class="MsoNormal">I disagree. 
                                        The addresses are useless unless
                                        they ALSO purchase access and <br>
                                        routing from another network
                                        operator.  How is this cheaper?<br>
                                        <br>
                                        It is and always has been
                                        allowed to lease bundled access
                                        of addresses and <br>
                                        connectivity from a LIR, without
                                        any expense for purchasing those
                                        addresses.<br>
                                        <br>
                                        <br>
                                        On 3/11/2022 12:13 PM, Tom
                                        Fantacone wrote:<br>
                                        > I support the proposal as
                                        written.<br>
                                        > <br>
                                        > It facilitates the
                                        provision of a valuable service
                                        to a large swath of the ARIN <br>
                                        > community, namely the
                                        ability of network operators
                                        with an operational need to <br>
                                        > lease IPv4 addresses from
                                        3rd party lessors at a fraction
                                        of the cost of <br>
                                        > purchasing those
                                        addresses.  Too often we have
                                        seen network operators justify <br>
                                        > their need for IPv4 space
                                        only to find that they can't
                                        afford to make the <br>
                                        > purchase.  They end up
                                        using CGNAT or some other
                                        sub-optimal solution.<br>
                                        > <br>
                                        > Bill, regarding your point
                                        "B", by providing IPv4 leasing,
                                        these 3rd parties are <br>
                                        > certainly performing a
                                        function that ARIN does not.<br>
                                        > <br>
                                        > <br>
                                        > <br>
                                        > ---- On Thu, 10 Mar 2022
                                        17:46:36 -0500 *William Herrin
                                        <<a
                                          href="mailto:bill@herrin.us"
                                          target="_blank"
                                          moz-do-not-send="true"
                                          class="moz-txt-link-freetext">bill@herrin.us</a>>*
                                        wrote ----<br>
                                        > <br>
                                        >     On Wed, Mar 9, 2022 at
                                        8:24 PM ARIN <<a
                                          href="mailto:info@arin.net"
                                          target="_blank"
                                          moz-do-not-send="true"
                                          class="moz-txt-link-freetext">info@arin.net</a> <mailto:<a
                                          href="mailto:info@arin.net"
                                          target="_blank"
                                          moz-do-not-send="true"
                                          class="moz-txt-link-freetext">info@arin.net</a>>><br>
                                        >     wrote:<br>
                                        >      > * ARIN-2021-6:
                                        Permit IPv4 Leased Addresses for
                                        Purposes of Determining<br>
                                        >     Utilization for Future
                                        Allocations<br>
                                        > <br>
                                        >     I continue to OPPOSE
                                        this proposal because:<br>
                                        > <br>
                                        >     A) It asks ARIN to
                                        facilitate blatant and
                                        unapologetic rent-seeking<br>
                                        >     behavior with changes
                                        to public policy.<br>
                                        > <br>
                                        >     B) It proposes that
                                        third parties perform precisely
                                        and only the<br>
                                        >     functions that ARIN
                                        itself performs without any
                                        credible compliance<br>
                                        >     mechanism to assure the
                                        third party performs to ARIN's
                                        standards or in<br>
                                        >     accordance with the
                                        community's established number
                                        policy.<br>
                                        > <br>
                                        >     Regards,<br>
                                        >     Bill Herrin<br>
                                        > <br>
                                        > <br>
                                        >     -- <br>
                                        >     William Herrin<br>
                                        >     <a
                                          href="mailto:bill@herrin.us"
                                          target="_blank"
                                          moz-do-not-send="true"
                                          class="moz-txt-link-freetext">bill@herrin.us</a> <mailto:<a
                                          href="mailto:bill@herrin.us"
                                          target="_blank"
                                          moz-do-not-send="true"
                                          class="moz-txt-link-freetext">bill@herrin.us</a>><br>
                                        >     <a
                                          href="https://bill.herrin.us/"
                                          target="_blank"
                                          moz-do-not-send="true"
                                          class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://bill.herrin.us/</a> <<a
                                          href="https://bill.herrin.us/"
                                          target="_blank"
                                          moz-do-not-send="true"
                                          class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://bill.herrin.us/</a>><br>
                                        >   
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                                        Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc.<br>
                                        781-861-0670 ext 539<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
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                                  <p class="MsoNormal">-- <o:p></o:p></p>
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                                    <p class="MsoNormal">===============================================<br>
                                      David Farmer               <a
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                                      Networking & Telecommunication
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                                      612-812-9952<br>
=============================================== <o:p></o:p></p>
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                                <pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
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      <pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">_______________________________________________
ARIN-PPML
You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to
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