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    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">The draft policy as currently written
      does not provide any additional limits against speculation.  As
      drafted, it allows any organization (including those who do not
      operate networks) to obtain IPv4 addresses for the purpose of
      leasing.  </div>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
    </div>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">With that policy change what types of
      limits does the community think would be needed?</div>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
    </div>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">Thanks,</div>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">Andrew<br>
    </div>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
    </div>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 3/17/2022 3:00 PM, Scott Leibrand
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAGkMwz6rEnXE=GOZ8N26-sYAJ_eBBxpnxDWVBKEi-kSWKcuHjw@mail.gmail.com">
      <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
      <div dir="ltr">+1 to both Owen and David Farmer's comments.
        Leasing IPv4 space is likely the best solution for some networks
        that need those addresses to operate their network. If an
        organization wants to acquire and lease out IPv4 space without
        providing bundled IPv4 transit, that should be allowed by
        policy. It might be useful for ARIN policy to try to slightly
        dampen speculation by requiring that organizations seeking to
        acquire large blocks of IPv4 space demonstrate that their
        current holdings are being efficiently used by the organization
        they're registered to in whois. I am not sure if this policy
        proposal does that to my satisfaction, but once we ensure it
        does so, I would likely support it.<br>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>-Scott</div>
      </div>
      <br>
      <div class="gmail_quote">
        <div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, Mar 17, 2022 at 1:33
          PM Owen DeLong via ARIN-PPML <<a
            href="mailto:arin-ppml@arin.net" moz-do-not-send="true"
            class="moz-txt-link-freetext">arin-ppml@arin.net</a>>
          wrote:<br>
        </div>
        <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
          0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
          <div style="overflow-wrap: break-word;"><br>
            <div>
              <div><br>
                <blockquote type="cite">
                  <div>On Mar 16, 2022, at 15:22 , Fernando Frediani
                    <<a href="mailto:fhfrediani@gmail.com"
                      target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
                      class="moz-txt-link-freetext">fhfrediani@gmail.com</a>>
                    wrote:</div>
                  <br>
                  <div>
                    <div>
                      <p>Hi David</p>
                      <p>If I understand correctly you seem to have a
                        view that there should be a ARIN policy to
                        permit IPv4 leasing just because it is a reality
                        and we kind of have to accept it in our days. No
                        we don't, and that's for many different reasons.</p>
                    </div>
                  </div>
                </blockquote>
                Well, of course, you are free to deny reality as much as
                you want. Many people do. It’s not particularly helpful
                in the discussion, however.</div>
              <div><br>
                <blockquote type="cite">
                  <div>
                    <p>I am used to see people saying the brokers are
                      doing a good thing for the community by
                      facilitating the things which in reality is the
                      opposite. It may look like a good things, but the
                      real beneficiaries are only them who profit from
                      it without much concern of what is fair or not to
                      most organizations involved.<br>
                    </p>
                  </div>
                </blockquote>
                <div><br>
                </div>
                You are actually mistaken here. I used to think as you
                do, actually. I was very resistant to the first
                “specified transfer” policies because of some of the
                reasons you describe. However, what you are failing to
                recognize is that:</div>
              <div><span style="white-space:pre-wrap">    </span>+<span style="white-space:pre-wrap">       </span>Brokers
                and specified transfers were going to happen with or
                without the RIRs. If they happened without the RIRs,</div>
              <div><span style="white-space:pre-wrap">            </span>there’d
                be no accurate record of who was using which address
                space and the provenance of addresses would be</div>
              <div><span style="white-space:pre-wrap">            </span>very
                difficult to support or defend.</div>
              <div><br>
              </div>
              <div><span style="white-space:pre-wrap">            </span>*<span style="white-space:pre-wrap">       </span>Benefit
                to the community from brokers: (ethical) brokers are
                familiar with the rules in the RIRs in which</div>
              <div><span style="white-space:pre-wrap">                            </span>they
                operate and can assist their customers in accurate and
                compliant registration updates and</div>
              <div><span style="white-space:pre-wrap">                            </span>aid in
                keeping the allocation database(s) accurate.</div>
              <div><br>
              </div>
              <div><span style="white-space:pre-wrap">    </span>+<span style="white-space:pre-wrap">       </span>With
                the economic realities of IPv4 addresses becoming
                progressively more and more expensive and the advent</div>
              <div><span style="white-space:pre-wrap">            </span>of ISPs
                with limited IPv4 resources available, it is inevitable
                that more and more IP service providers will be</div>
              <div><span style="white-space:pre-wrap">            </span>doing one
                or more of the following:</div>
              <div><br>
              </div>
              <div><span style="white-space:pre-wrap">            </span>+<span style="white-space:pre-wrap">       </span>Separate
                surcharges for IPv4 addresses</div>
              <div><span style="white-space:pre-wrap">            </span>+<span style="white-space:pre-wrap">       </span>Expecting
                customers to supply their own IPv4 addresses</div>
              <div><span style="white-space:pre-wrap">            </span>+<span style="white-space:pre-wrap">       </span>Surcharges
                for IPv4 services</div>
              <div><span style="white-space:pre-wrap">            </span>+<span style="white-space:pre-wrap">       </span>IPv4
                “installation charges” large enough to cover the
                procurement of addresses</div>
              <div><br>
              </div>
              <div><span style="white-space:pre-wrap">            </span>*<span style="white-space:pre-wrap">       </span>Brokers
                assist ISPs and customers in many of the above
                circumstances.</div>
              <div><br>
              </div>
              <div><span style="white-space:pre-wrap">    </span>+<span style="white-space:pre-wrap">       </span>With
                a variety of organizations holding IPv4 addresses that
                may or may not even known they have them and whose</div>
              <div><span style="white-space:pre-wrap">            </span>IPv4
                resources may vastly exceed their needs, it is
                (arguably) desirable to have those addresses be
                transferred to parties</div>
              <div><span style="white-space:pre-wrap">            </span>that have
                current need for IPv4 addresses.</div>
              <div><br>
              </div>
              <div><span style="white-space:pre-wrap">            </span>*<span style="white-space:pre-wrap">       </span>Brokers
                provide a valuable service to the community identifying
                and marketing these resources</div>
              <div><span style="white-space:pre-wrap">            </span>*<span style="white-space:pre-wrap">       </span>Paid
                transfers provide an incentive for entities to make more
                efficient use of the resources they have in order</div>
              <div><span style="white-space:pre-wrap">                    </span>to
                monetize the resources they no longer need. Brokers are
                frequently able to assist in this process.</div>
              <div><br>
              </div>
              <div><span style="white-space:pre-wrap">    </span>+<span style="white-space:pre-wrap">       </span>With
                the high cost of acquisition, IPv4 addresses have become
                a capital intensive part of any network-dependent</div>
              <div><span style="white-space:pre-wrap">            </span>business
                model that must support IPv4. Further, there is some
                risk that this capital outlay may be fore a resource</div>
              <div><span style="white-space:pre-wrap">            </span>which
                will abruptly and quickly lose its value and no longer
                be needed well before it can be amortized as a capital</div>
              <div><span style="white-space:pre-wrap">            </span>expenditure.
                As such, it may make sense for some entities to transfer
                that risk to another organization by using</div>
              <div><span style="white-space:pre-wrap">            </span>a lease
                structure instead of purchasing the addresses outright.</div>
              <div><br>
              </div>
              <div><span style="white-space:pre-wrap">            </span>*<span style="white-space:pre-wrap">       </span>Brokers
                that provide IPv4 leasing in an ethical and policy
                compliant way provide a valuable service</div>
              <div><span style="white-space:pre-wrap">                    </span>to these
                businesses. Yes, their price per address may eventually
                be more than it would have cost</div>
              <div><span style="white-space:pre-wrap">                    </span>them to
                purchase the addresses, but the same is true of
                virtually any rental situation.  On the other hand,</div>
              <div><span style="white-space:pre-wrap">                    </span>that
                excess helps offset the risk that the lessor is taking
                by owning a resource that may or may not remain</div>
              <div><span style="white-space:pre-wrap">                    </span>valuable
                and may or may not continue to produce revenue.</div>
              <div>
                <blockquote type="cite">
                  <div>
                    <p>IP Leasing is very different from IP Transfer
                      which I see not problem they continue doing it. IP
                      Transfer at least we have some guarantees that the
                      directly receiving organization really justify for
                      them and that is a quiet important (I would say
                      fundamental) point to look at, because that is
                      fairer to everyone involved. What guarantees we
                      have when a IP Leasing is done in that sense, that
                      fairness start to lack here.</p>
                  </div>
                </blockquote>
                If we set the policies up correctly, we should have the
                same exact guarantees on a lease.</div>
              <div><br>
              </div>
              <div><span style="white-space:pre-wrap">    </span>If $ISP
                acquires a /10 through transfer and then issues various
                subordinate prefixes to their customer, the only
                guarantee</div>
              <div><span style="white-space:pre-wrap">    </span>you have
                that $ISP’s customers who receive the addresses really
                justify them is that $ISP says so. We generally trust
                $ISP</div>
              <div><span style="white-space:pre-wrap">    </span>to act in
                good faith.</div>
              <div><br>
              </div>
              <div><span style="white-space:pre-wrap">    </span>If $LESSOR
                acquires a /10 through transfer and then leases various
                subordinate prefixes to their customers, we have pretty</div>
              <div><span style="white-space:pre-wrap">    </span>much the
                same guarantee with the additional bit that $CUSTOMER is
                at least willing to pay enough for the addresses to
                $LESSOR</div>
              <div><span style="white-space:pre-wrap">    </span>to make
                the lease make sense. In general, I think it is somewhat
                safe to assume that $CUSTOMER is not going to make a</div>
              <div><span style="white-space:pre-wrap">    </span>monthly
                recurring payment to $LESSOR for something they don’t
                intend to use. If one’s intent is to deprive the market
                and</div>
              <div><span style="white-space:pre-wrap">    </span>inflate
                the price, then the risk profile for such a transaction
                is vastly more favorable if you purchase rather than
                lease.</div>
              <div><br>
              </div>
              <div><span style="white-space:pre-wrap">    </span>Sure,
                there could be lessors that don’t get reasonable
                justification for allocations from their customers, but
                there are most</div>
              <div><span style="white-space:pre-wrap">    </span>certainly
                ISPs in that category as well. Either way, you’ve got
                very little assurance. A lessor can provide just as much</div>
              <div><span style="white-space:pre-wrap">    </span>justification
                to an RIR for the addresses they will allocate to leases
                as an ISP can for addresses they will lease to their</div>
              <div><span style="white-space:pre-wrap">    </span>customers.
                The only difference is a lease with connectivity from
                the same company or a lease from a company other than</div>
              <div><span style="white-space:pre-wrap">    </span>the one(s)
                providing connectivity.</div>
              <div>
                <blockquote type="cite">
                  <div>
                    <p>People see the brokers are doing a favor to
                      organizations in general by facilitating they get
                      some chunks of IPv4, but that in reality makes the
                      cost of IPv4 for both leasing and transfer more
                      and more expensive as it makes organization even
                      more dependent from these <span lang="en">those
                        crumbs that seem to be offered with good
                        intention</span> but in reality it is feeding a
                      system that is contrary the interests to most
                      organizations involved.</p>
                  </div>
                </blockquote>
                Just as you are free to mount, balance, and rotate your
                own tires, or, you can go to a tire store and have them
                perform that service for a fee, brokers provide a
                service for a fee. If you want to obtain addresses in
                the transfer market without a broker, you’re still free
                to do that. Brokers are not driving the cost of IPv4…
                The scarcity and difficulty of operating with IPv4 is
                driving the cost of IPv4. Brokers are along for the ride
                providing a service and collecting a fee for that
                service. Whether that fee is reasonable or not is (and
                should be) entirely in the eye of the customer.
                Customers are always free to walk away and find a
                different supplier or look for their addresses
                independently.</div>
              <div>
                <blockquote type="cite">
                  <div>
                    <p>It may sound a cliche but IPv4 is over and
                      organizations must learn how to survive with what
                      they have, reinvent themselves and make better
                      used of their IPv4 resources, deploy a proper
                      CGNAT, deploy IPv6 either they like it or not,
                      etc. If an organization have so little or none and
                      need some minimal amount is fine they seek for a
                      Transfer of a minimal amount with the help of
                      brokers. <br>
                    </p>
                  </div>
                </blockquote>
                I agree. However, the increasing cost of IPv4 is a
                natural and organic part of that process and sticking
                our heads in the sand and pretending that it is not the
                economic reality of how the current world works will not
                help anyone. Not the community, not organizations that
                are short on IPv4 resources, and not the RIRs who are
                only useful so long as their databases provide a
                reasonably accurate reflection of the actual utilization
                of the address space and who controls it.</div>
              <div><br>
              </div>
              <div>A broker is an LIR just like an ISP. Since ISPs are
                now charging for addresses independent of connectivity
                and bandwidth, it only makes sense that customers can
                shop for them separately from different suppliers. Just
                like you can buy tires for your car from the dealership
                or from some other store that sells and supports tires,
                IPv4 addresses are moving that way as well. The RIRs can
                either recognize this and adapt to it with policies that
                make sense and preserve some of the things you’ve
                outlined as concerns above, or, they can simply deny the
                reality of IPv4 leasing and lose track of how addresses
                are actually managed for some significant chunks of the
                internet.</div>
              <div>
                <blockquote type="cite">
                  <div>
                    <p>Encouraging IP Leasing as if it were something
                      normal just "because it exists today" is a shot in
                      the foot that in the long term only worsens the
                      existing scenario, it feeds a market without much
                      discretion increasing final prices for everyone
                      and what is the worst of all, creates even more
                      unfairness for everyone who has always submitted
                      to the rules we have until today for distributing
                      addresses to those who really have a real
                      justification to keep control of that resource
                      that does not belong to them.</p>
                  </div>
                </blockquote>
                I don’t believe that a policy that merely allows IPv4
                leasing can be said to encourage it. Rather, it permits
                it, recognizes that it exists and is not going to stop
                existing just because policy pretends it can’t exist.</div>
              <div><br>
              </div>
              <div>The market is not likely to be significantly swayed
                by policy in terms of pricing, with the exception that
                AFRINIC has been able to preserve a devalued price on
                addresses within their region due to their restrictive
                lack of a transfer policy for moving addresses to/from
                AFRINIC. However, while this has the effect of keeping
                AFRINIC IPv4 addresses less expensive on the open
                market, it also leads to a significant amount of
                utilization of those addresses outside of policy and
                quite a bit of hoarding of addresses by some of
                AFRINIC’s largest members. ARIN’s counsel has advised
                against naming names here, so I won’t, but if you want
                names, contact me off list.</div>
              <div><br>
              </div>
              <div>Owen</div>
              <div> <br>
                <blockquote type="cite">
                  <div>
                    <p>Regards<br>
                      Fernando<br>
                    </p>
                    <div>On 16/03/2022 13:09, David Farmer via ARIN-PPML
                      wrote:<br>
                    </div>
                    <blockquote type="cite">
                      <div dir="ltr">
                        <div>Yes, bundling IPv4 addresses with
                          bandwidth is permitted, and in the past was
                          common practice, heck even the expected
                          practice. However, the fact that IPv4 address
                          demand isn't decreasing significantly, the
                          costs to acquire new IPv4 addresses are
                          increasing significantly, and with the
                          increasing commoditization of bandwidth, it is
                          no longer economically viable to bundle
                          bandwidth, and its associated connectivity,
                          with IPv4 addressing. This is driving a
                          structural separation of bandwidth,
                          connectivity, and IPv4 addressing, from each
                          other, instead of bundling them together as in
                          the past.</div>
                        <div><br>
                        </div>
                        <div>Let me state that differently; ISPs are
                          being driven, buy cost conscience consumers,
                          to separate the costs of bandwidth and the
                          costs of the IPv4 addresses needed to utilize
                          the bandwidth from each other.  Minimally this
                          separation is achieved by accounting for the
                          costs on separate line items of a common bill
                          from a single provider. However, price
                          competition for bandwidth and IPv4 addresses
                          separately will inevitably drive a structural
                          separation between the two. Consumers will
                          want the best price they can get for bandwidth
                          and the best price they can get for IPv4
                          addresses, regardless of whether they come
                          from a single provider or not.</div>
                        <div><br>
                        </div>
                        <div>Some may argue this is being driven by the
                          existence of address brokers, and their desire
                          to make money, I disagree. While address
                          brokers making money is the grease that keeps
                          this machine working, the need for the machine
                          is driven by; IPv4 free pool exhaustion, the
                          increasing cost of IPv4 addresses, and the
                          lack of adoption of IPv6.</div>
                        <div>In other words, address brokers wouldn't
                          exist if there wasn't a demand for their
                          services.</div>
                        <div><br>
                        </div>
                        <div>In short, the economic conditions that
                          allowed for and even encouraged the
                          bundling of IPv4 addresses with bandwidth and
                          connectivity no longer exist, that world is
                          gone. While I have not personally yet
                          determined if I support this particular policy
                          text, nevertheless, the time has come to
                          recognize the next step in this inextricable
                          evolution of IPv4 address policy by the ARIN
                          policy community and permit IPv4 leasing.</div>
                        <div><br>
                        </div>
                        <div>Thanks.</div>
                        <br>
                        <div class="gmail_quote">
                          <div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri, Mar
                            11, 2022 at 5:05 PM John Santos <<a
                              href="mailto:john@egh.com" target="_blank"
                              moz-do-not-send="true"
                              class="moz-txt-link-freetext">john@egh.com</a>>
                            wrote:<br>
                          </div>
                          <blockquote class="gmail_quote"
                            style="margin:0px 0px 0px
                            0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
                            rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">I
                            disagree.  The addresses are useless unless
                            they ALSO purchase access and <br>
                            routing from another network operator.  How
                            is this cheaper?<br>
                            <br>
                            It is and always has been allowed to lease
                            bundled access of addresses and <br>
                            connectivity from a LIR, without any expense
                            for purchasing those addresses.<br>
                            <br>
                            <br>
                            On 3/11/2022 12:13 PM, Tom Fantacone wrote:<br>
                            > I support the proposal as written.<br>
                            > <br>
                            > It facilitates the provision of a
                            valuable service to a large swath of the
                            ARIN <br>
                            > community, namely the ability of
                            network operators with an operational need
                            to <br>
                            > lease IPv4 addresses from 3rd party
                            lessors at a fraction of the cost of <br>
                            > purchasing those addresses.  Too often
                            we have seen network operators justify <br>
                            > their need for IPv4 space only to find
                            that they can't afford to make the <br>
                            > purchase.  They end up using CGNAT or
                            some other sub-optimal solution.<br>
                            > <br>
                            > Bill, regarding your point "B", by
                            providing IPv4 leasing, these 3rd parties
                            are <br>
                            > certainly performing a function that
                            ARIN does not.<br>
                            > <br>
                            > <br>
                            > <br>
                            > ---- On Thu, 10 Mar 2022 17:46:36 -0500
                            *William Herrin <<a
                              href="mailto:bill@herrin.us"
                              target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
                              class="moz-txt-link-freetext">bill@herrin.us</a>>*
                            wrote ----<br>
                            > <br>
                            >     On Wed, Mar 9, 2022 at 8:24 PM ARIN
                            <<a href="mailto:info@arin.net"
                              target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
                              class="moz-txt-link-freetext">info@arin.net</a> <mailto:<a
                              href="mailto:info@arin.net"
                              target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
                              class="moz-txt-link-freetext">info@arin.net</a>>><br>
                            >     wrote:<br>
                            >      > * ARIN-2021-6: Permit IPv4
                            Leased Addresses for Purposes of Determining<br>
                            >     Utilization for Future Allocations<br>
                            > <br>
                            >     I continue to OPPOSE this proposal
                            because:<br>
                            > <br>
                            >     A) It asks ARIN to facilitate
                            blatant and unapologetic rent-seeking<br>
                            >     behavior with changes to public
                            policy.<br>
                            > <br>
                            >     B) It proposes that third parties
                            perform precisely and only the<br>
                            >     functions that ARIN itself performs
                            without any credible compliance<br>
                            >     mechanism to assure the third party
                            performs to ARIN's standards or in<br>
                            >     accordance with the community's
                            established number policy.<br>
                            > <br>
                            >     Regards,<br>
                            >     Bill Herrin<br>
                            > <br>
                            > <br>
                            >     -- <br>
                            >     William Herrin<br>
                            >     <a href="mailto:bill@herrin.us"
                              target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
                              class="moz-txt-link-freetext">bill@herrin.us</a> <mailto:<a
                              href="mailto:bill@herrin.us"
                              target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
                              class="moz-txt-link-freetext">bill@herrin.us</a>><br>
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                              moz-do-not-send="true"
                              class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://bill.herrin.us/</a>><br>
                            >   
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                        -- <br>
                        <div dir="ltr">===============================================<br>
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                            href="mailto:Email%3Afarmer@umn.edu"
                            target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">Email:farmer@umn.edu</a><br>
                          Networking & Telecommunication Services<br>
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