<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
</head>
<body>
<p>Hi David</p>
<p>If I understand correctly you seem to have a view that there
should be a ARIN policy to permit IPv4 leasing just because it is
a reality and we kind of have to accept it in our days. No we
don't, and that's for many different reasons.</p>
<p>I am used to see people saying the brokers are doing a good thing
for the community by facilitating the things which in reality is
the opposite. It may look like a good things, but the real
beneficiaries are only them who profit from it without much
concern of what is fair or not to most organizations involved.<br>
IP Leasing is very different from IP Transfer which I see not
problem they continue doing it. IP Transfer at least we have some
guarantees that the directly receiving organization really justify
for them and that is a quiet important (I would say fundamental)
point to look at, because that is fairer to everyone involved.
What guarantees we have when a IP Leasing is done in that sense,
that fairness start to lack here.</p>
<p>People see the brokers are doing a favor to organizations in
general by facilitating they get some chunks of IPv4, but that in
reality makes the cost of IPv4 for both leasing and transfer more
and more expensive as it makes organization even more dependent
from these <span class="VIiyi" lang="en"><span class="JLqJ4b
ChMk0b" data-language-for-alternatives="en"
data-language-to-translate-into="pt" data-phrase-index="0"
data-number-of-phrases="1"><span>those crumbs that seem to be
offered with good intention</span></span></span> but in
reality it is feeding a system that is contrary the interests to
most organizations involved.</p>
<p>It may sound a cliche but IPv4 is over and organizations must
learn how to survive with what they have, reinvent themselves and
make better used of their IPv4 resources, deploy a proper CGNAT,
deploy IPv6 either they like it or not, etc. If an organization
have so little or none and need some minimal amount is fine they
seek for a Transfer of a minimal amount with the help of brokers.
<br>
</p>
<p>Encouraging IP Leasing as if it were something normal just
"because it exists today" is a shot in the foot that in the long
term only worsens the existing scenario, it feeds a market without
much discretion increasing final prices for everyone and what is
the worst of all, creates even more unfairness for everyone who
has always submitted to the rules we have until today for
distributing addresses to those who really have a real
justification to keep control of that resource that does not
belong to them.</p>
<p>Regards<br>
Fernando<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 16/03/2022 13:09, David Farmer via
ARIN-PPML wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAN-Dau1c0=nk7DGasM3_w16y_q+OMjO8cvv0U-MyQ8aRp0zUyw@mail.gmail.com">
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>Yes, bundling IPv4 addresses with bandwidth is permitted,
and in the past was common practice, heck even the expected
practice. However, the fact that IPv4 address demand isn't
decreasing significantly, the costs to acquire new IPv4
addresses are increasing significantly, and with the
increasing commoditization of bandwidth, it is no longer
economically viable to bundle bandwidth, and its associated
connectivity, with IPv4 addressing. This is driving a
structural separation of bandwidth, connectivity, and IPv4
addressing, from each other, instead of bundling them together
as in the past.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Let me state that differently; ISPs are being driven, buy
cost conscience consumers, to separate the costs of bandwidth
and the costs of the IPv4 addresses needed to utilize the
bandwidth from each other. Minimally this separation is
achieved by accounting for the costs on separate line items of
a common bill from a single provider. However, price
competition for bandwidth and IPv4 addresses separately will
inevitably drive a structural separation between the two.
Consumers will want the best price they can get for bandwidth
and the best price they can get for IPv4 addresses, regardless
of whether they come from a single provider or not.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Some may argue this is being driven by the existence of
address brokers, and their desire to make money, I disagree.
While address brokers making money is the grease that keeps
this machine working, the need for the machine is driven by;
IPv4 free pool exhaustion, the increasing cost of IPv4
addresses, and the lack of adoption of IPv6.</div>
<div>In other words, address brokers wouldn't exist if there
wasn't a demand for their services.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>In short, the economic conditions that allowed for and even
encouraged the bundling of IPv4 addresses with bandwidth and
connectivity no longer exist, that world is gone. While I have
not personally yet determined if I support this particular
policy text, nevertheless, the time has come to recognize the
next step in this inextricable evolution of IPv4 address
policy by the ARIN policy community and permit IPv4 leasing.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thanks.</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri, Mar 11, 2022 at 5:05
PM John Santos <<a href="mailto:john@egh.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">john@egh.com</a>> wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">I disagree. The
addresses are useless unless they ALSO purchase access and <br>
routing from another network operator. How is this cheaper?<br>
<br>
It is and always has been allowed to lease bundled access of
addresses and <br>
connectivity from a LIR, without any expense for purchasing
those addresses.<br>
<br>
<br>
On 3/11/2022 12:13 PM, Tom Fantacone wrote:<br>
> I support the proposal as written.<br>
> <br>
> It facilitates the provision of a valuable service to a
large swath of the ARIN <br>
> community, namely the ability of network operators with
an operational need to <br>
> lease IPv4 addresses from 3rd party lessors at a
fraction of the cost of <br>
> purchasing those addresses. Too often we have seen
network operators justify <br>
> their need for IPv4 space only to find that they can't
afford to make the <br>
> purchase. They end up using CGNAT or some other
sub-optimal solution.<br>
> <br>
> Bill, regarding your point "B", by providing IPv4
leasing, these 3rd parties are <br>
> certainly performing a function that ARIN does not.<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> ---- On Thu, 10 Mar 2022 17:46:36 -0500 *William Herrin
<<a href="mailto:bill@herrin.us" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">bill@herrin.us</a>>*
wrote ----<br>
> <br>
> On Wed, Mar 9, 2022 at 8:24 PM ARIN <<a
href="mailto:info@arin.net" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">info@arin.net</a>
<mailto:<a href="mailto:info@arin.net" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">info@arin.net</a>>><br>
> wrote:<br>
> > * ARIN-2021-6: Permit IPv4 Leased Addresses
for Purposes of Determining<br>
> Utilization for Future Allocations<br>
> <br>
> I continue to OPPOSE this proposal because:<br>
> <br>
> A) It asks ARIN to facilitate blatant and
unapologetic rent-seeking<br>
> behavior with changes to public policy.<br>
> <br>
> B) It proposes that third parties perform precisely
and only the<br>
> functions that ARIN itself performs without any
credible compliance<br>
> mechanism to assure the third party performs to
ARIN's standards or in<br>
> accordance with the community's established number
policy.<br>
> <br>
> Regards,<br>
> Bill Herrin<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> -- <br>
> William Herrin<br>
> <a href="mailto:bill@herrin.us" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">bill@herrin.us</a>
<mailto:<a href="mailto:bill@herrin.us" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">bill@herrin.us</a>><br>
> <a href="https://bill.herrin.us/" rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://bill.herrin.us/</a>
<<a href="https://bill.herrin.us/" rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://bill.herrin.us/</a>><br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
> ARIN-PPML<br>
> You are receiving this message because you are
subscribed to<br>
> the ARIN Public Policy Mailing List (<a
href="mailto:ARIN-PPML@arin.net" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">ARIN-PPML@arin.net</a><br>
> <mailto:<a href="mailto:ARIN-PPML@arin.net"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">ARIN-PPML@arin.net</a>>).<br>
> Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list
subscription at:<br>
> <a
href="https://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml</a><br>
> <<a
href="https://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml</a>><br>
> Please contact <a href="mailto:info@arin.net"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">info@arin.net</a>
<mailto:<a href="mailto:info@arin.net" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">info@arin.net</a>>
if you experience any<br>
> issues.<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
> ARIN-PPML<br>
> You are receiving this message because you are
subscribed to<br>
> the ARIN Public Policy Mailing List (<a
href="mailto:ARIN-PPML@arin.net" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">ARIN-PPML@arin.net</a>).<br>
> Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription
at:<br>
> <a
href="https://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml</a><br>
> Please contact <a href="mailto:info@arin.net"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">info@arin.net</a> if you
experience any issues.<br>
<br>
-- <br>
John Santos<br>
Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc.<br>
781-861-0670 ext 539<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
ARIN-PPML<br>
You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to<br>
the ARIN Public Policy Mailing List (<a
href="mailto:ARIN-PPML@arin.net" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">ARIN-PPML@arin.net</a>).<br>
Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:<br>
<a href="https://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml</a><br>
Please contact <a href="mailto:info@arin.net"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">info@arin.net</a> if you
experience any issues.<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br clear="all">
<div><br>
</div>
-- <br>
<div dir="ltr">===============================================<br>
David Farmer <a
href="mailto:Email%3Afarmer@umn.edu" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">Email:farmer@umn.edu</a><br>
Networking & Telecommunication Services<br>
Office of Information Technology<br>
University of Minnesota <br>
2218 University Ave SE Phone: 612-626-0815<br>
Minneapolis, MN 55414-3029 Cell: 612-812-9952<br>
=============================================== </div>
</div>
<br>
<fieldset class="moz-mime-attachment-header"></fieldset>
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">_______________________________________________
ARIN-PPML
You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to
the ARIN Public Policy Mailing List (<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:ARIN-PPML@arin.net">ARIN-PPML@arin.net</a>).
Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml">https://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml</a>
Please contact <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:info@arin.net">info@arin.net</a> if you experience any issues.
</pre>
</blockquote>
</body>
</html>