<div dir="ltr">It seems that lots of people oppose this policy based on their assumptions about what it will do to the economics of the IP address transfer market, but no one is making those assumptions explicit or describing what exactly they think would happen if it were passed.<div><br></div><div>Right now <a href="https://auctions.ipv4.global/prior-sales" target="_blank">https://auctions.ipv4.global/prior-sales</a> is showing recent prices of about $55 per IP (to buy them on the transfer market), up from about $30/IP a year ago.</div><div><br></div><div>Right now <a href="https://www.heficed.com/lease-ipv4/" target="_blank">https://www.heficed.com/lease-ipv4/</a> is quoting $0.50/mo per IP ($546 for 1024 addresses). The data at <a href="https://www.ipxo.com/blog/leasing-vs-buying-ip-addresses/" target="_blank">https://www.ipxo.com/blog/leasing-vs-buying-ip-addresses/</a> is a bit older, but indicates that in late 2020, prices were in a similar range of $0.34 - $0.67 per IP.</div><div><br></div><div>If someone buys addresses at $55 each and leases them out at $0.50/mo, it would take 110 months (9 years) to cover the cost. That would be a lousy business, so clearly, entities leasing space are expecting IPv4 purchase prices to continue rising more quickly than their cost of financing, and expect to be able to sell any addresses they buy at a profit.</div><div><br></div><div>Leasing is clearly already happening. Right now it has to be done using RIPE space or by an entity that has (at least nominal) network connectivity.</div><div><br></div><div>If you oppose or support this policy on grounds that it will affect the supply and demand of addresses, can you be more specific as to what effects you expect relaxing the justification requirements for those offering IP leasing who want to buy more space to lease out would have? How would this policy affect the demand and price of IPv4 addresses bought and sold on the transfer market? How would that affect the supply, demand, and price of IPv4 addresses available for lease? How would that affect network operators? Would more of them switch from purchasing addresses to leasing them? With leasing (currently) being cheaper than purchasing (because a purchase is also an investment in a currently-appreciating asset), would it help or hurt network operators for leasing to be considered a more legitimate option?</div><div><br></div><div>-Scott</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri, Mar 11, 2022 at 10:02 AM Fernando Frediani <<a href="mailto:fhfrediani@gmail.com" target="_blank">fhfrediani@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<div>On 11/03/2022 14:56, Tom Fantacone
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div style="font-family:Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt">
<div>Bill,<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>We can quibble about semantics, but let's go with your
verbiage:<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div style="text-align:left">If I run a
network and qualify for an /18 right now, can I go to ARIN and
lease one? I must either <i>pay someone to release their
addresses to ARIN to lease to me</i> or lease one from a
(non-ARIN) 3rd party.<br>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
And that should always be the expected, release them to ARIN which
should be the only actor taking care of it.<br>
I really fail to understand how can one consider legit that a 3rd
party could be doing this job otherwise.<br>
<p>If everybody sticks that what is expected, things work better, is
much better to trust ARIN to do this plus in the end doing in such
way doesn't least space for speculation, price rises and community
have the assurance that the one who is intermediating it is
someone really neutral and with no other interests to the business
other than make sure the policies are being followed.</p>
<p>Fernando<br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div style="font-family:Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt">
<div style="text-align:left"><br>
</div>
<div style="text-align:left">And the amount
I must pay (commonly referred to as the Purchase Price in most
IPv4 transfer contracts, whether I'm technically "buying" it
or not), is significantly more than either typical lease rates
or ARIN's annual fees. My point is that 3rd party lessors do
provide a service that ARIN does not.<br>
</div>
<div style="text-align:left"><br>
</div>
<div style="text-align:left">Regards,<br>
</div>
<div style="text-align:left"><br>
</div>
<div style="text-align:left">Tom Fantacone<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div style="border-top:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);height:0px;margin-top:10px;margin-bottom:10px;line-height:0px"><br>
</div>
<div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div id="gmail-m_7976876151835855449gmail-m_-4808509796066532705gmail-m_-8107556546104187107gmail-m_-968748883022522820gmail-m_-488674295728572883Zm-_Id_-Sgn1">---- On Fri, 11 Mar 2022 12:42:52 -0500
<b>William Herrin <a href="mailto:bill@herrin.us" target="_blank"><bill@herrin.us></a></b> wrote ----<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin:0px">
<div>On Fri, Mar 11, 2022 at 9:40 AM Tom Fantacone <<a href="mailto:tom@iptrading.com" style="color:rgb(0,0,238)" target="_blank">tom@iptrading.com</a>>
wrote: <br>
> If I run a network and qualify for an /18 right now,
can I got to ARIN and lease one? I must either buy one on
the transfer market <br>
<br>
Tom, <br>
<br>
I think you misunderstand the transfer market. You don't
buy addresses <br>
on the transfer market. You lease addresses from ARIN and
then pay <br>
someone on the transfer market to release their addresses
to ARIN for <br>
lease to you. <br>
<br>
Regards, <br>
Bill Herrin <br>
<br>
<br>
-- <br>
William Herrin <br>
<a href="mailto:bill@herrin.us" style="color:rgb(0,0,238)" target="_blank">bill@herrin.us</a> <br>
<a href="https://bill.herrin.us/" style="color:rgb(0,0,238)" target="_blank">https://bill.herrin.us/</a>
<br>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<br>
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