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    <p>+1</p>
    <p>Pretty good and clear explanation.<br>
      I am glad that more most people seem to reject the idea that IP
      leasing may be a good or even justified thing, including for those
      who end up paying for it.</p>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 08/09/2021 22:33, John Curran wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite"
      cite="mid:C11F167B-5906-4826-AB7B-50AD45ABDF10@arin.net">
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      On 8 Sep 2021, at 5:02 PM, Owen DeLong <<a
        href="mailto:owen@delong.com" class="" moz-do-not-send="true">owen@delong.com</a>>
      wrote:<br class="">
      <div>
        <blockquote type="cite" class="">On Sep 7, 2021, at 11:03 , John
          Curran <<a href="mailto:jcurran@arin.net" class=""
            moz-do-not-send="true">jcurran@arin.net</a>> wrote:<br
            class="">
          <div class="">
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              <div class="">
                <blockquote type="cite" class="">
                  <div class="">
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                      <div class="">
                        <div class="">...</div>
                        The conservation principle an overall principle
                        contained in section 1 – i.e. "1. Principles and
                        Goals of the American Registry for Internet
                        Numbers (ARIN)” i</div>
                      <div class=""><br class="">
                      </div>
                      <div class="">As such, the issuance of number
                        resources must be for “<b class="">a technical
                          need for them in support of operational
                          networks."</b></div>
                    </div>
                  </div>
                </blockquote>
                <div class=""><br class="">
                </div>
                Right… And an LIR’s customers with operational networks
                would be such a valid technical need regardless of where
                or how</div>
              <div class="">that LIR’s customers connected those
                networks to whatever other networks. What am I missing?</div>
            </div>
          </div>
        </blockquote>
        <div><br class="">
        </div>
        Owen - </div>
      <div><br class="">
      </div>
      <div>That would be a valid technical need for IP address space,
        but it is not the ISP’s technical need driven by their
        operational networks (unless the ISP is providing some
        connectivity services.) </div>
      <div><br class="">
      </div>
      <div>A  customer with an operational network could easily have
        technical need for additional IP address space – for example, a
        customer which has the need for additional space to grow their
        network can come to ARIN and get more space per policy. </div>
      <div>
        <div class="">
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            line-break: after-white-space;" class="">
            <div class=""><br class="">
            </div>
          </div>
        </div>
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            <div class="">
              <blockquote type="cite" class="">
                <div class="">
                  <div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode:
                    space; line-break: after-white-space;" class="">
                    <div class="">
                      They do distribute IP addresses to their customers
                      as a result of the provision of their network
                      services. <br class="">
                    </div>
                  </div>
                </div>
              </blockquote>
              <div class=""><br class="">
              </div>
              So this is still another organization’s technical need for
              number resources. It’s not the LIR’s need for number
              resources,</div>
            <div class="">it’s their customers’ need for those
              resources. That’s my point.</div>
          </div>
        </blockquote>
        <div><br class="">
        </div>
        It is interesting how hard you try to twist interpretation
        against plain language, common sense, and ARIN’s entire history
        of existing  practice – all in order to make leasing to address
        space to parties have no relation to your network services
        somehow now be a valid technical need for more address space.</div>
      <div><br class="">
      </div>
      <div>Under such a theory, the first LIR at ARIN could claim that
        they have technical need for more blocks to support their
        forthcoming leasing to all cloud providers in North America (a
        lot of need indeed)…   The fact that you have business
        relationship with a party does not make _their_ technical
        requirements somehow into _your_ technical requirements. </div>
      <div><br class="">
      </div>
      <div>On the other hand. when an ISP connects a customer to the
        Internet, they often do need to supply some address space to the
        customer for use in the customer’s network - it might be a
        single IP address for a customer CPE, or it could be an large
        block because the customer wants all of the devices on their
        internal network to now have Internet access – i.e. precisely
        why they purchased Internet service.   The address space needed
        by the ISP is a valid technical need because ISP requires it for
        the connectivity service being provisioned, even if some of it
        is sub-assigned and utilized on customers network
        infrastructure.    </div>
      <div><br class="">
      </div>
      <div>This is common practice, and nearly everyone in the ARIN ISP
        community is both aware of it and has submitted resource
        requests accordingly. </div>
      <div><br class="">
      </div>
      <div>
        <blockquote type="cite" class="">
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            line-break: after-white-space;" class="">
            <div class="">
              <blockquote type="cite" class="">
                <div class="">
                  <div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode:
                    space; line-break: after-white-space;" class="">
                    <div class="">Principle applies the same either way.
                        As you noted, there is a way around that -
                      provision VPN services with IP address as a
                      component of that service.</div>
                  </div>
                </div>
              </blockquote>
              <div class=""><br class="">
              </div>
              OK, so as long as GRE tunnels that never actually carry
              traffic are created as a fig leaf to cover the lease, it’s
              OK and within policy, ...</div>
          </div>
        </blockquote>
        <div><br class="">
        </div>
        Incorrect, as that is not what I said – at no point did I say
        “VPN services that never carry traffic” represent a valid
        technical need. </div>
      <div><br class="">
      </div>
      <div>A party which indicates on their resource request that their
        technical need is driven by growth in VPN services that _never_
        will carry any actual traffic would be obviously be engaging in
        some creative fabrication, and thus declined. </div>
      <div><br class="">
      </div>
      <div>
        <blockquote type="cite" class="">
          <div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space;
            line-break: after-white-space;" class="">
            <div class="">but without such GRE tunnels, you believe it
              to be a violation of policy.</div>
          </div>
        </blockquote>
        <blockquote type="cite" class=""><br class="">
        </blockquote>
        <blockquote type="cite" class="">
          <div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space;
            line-break: after-white-space;" class="">
            <div class="">Glad to have you on record for this (though
              still not convinced that’s what the policy manual actually
              says).</div>
          </div>
        </blockquote>
        <div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space;
          line-break: after-white-space;" class="">
          <div class=""><br class="">
          </div>
          <div class="">As noted above, you can try to reinterpret the
            policy language all day to justify leasing as a valid need
            for number resources, but that’s contrary to the
            understanding of the ARIN community and more than two
            decades of operating practice.</div>
          <div class=""><br class="">
          </div>
          <div class="">If you really want to change ARIN’s existing
            number resource policy to meet your creative new world view,
            please put in a policy proposal to make the change and let
            the community discuss and decide whether solely utilization
            due to leasing of address space to others should be
            considered a valid need for receiving additional number
            resource issuance. </div>
          <div class=""><br class="">
          </div>
          <div class="">Regards,</div>
          <div class="">/John</div>
          <div class=""><br class="">
          </div>
          <div class="">
            <div class="">John Curran</div>
            <div class="">President and CEO</div>
            <div class="">American Registry for Internet Numbers</div>
          </div>
          <div class=""><br class="">
          </div>
          <div class=""><br class="">
          </div>
          <div class=""><br class="">
          </div>
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      <br>
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