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<p>I don't think this is something to celebrate as it puts over
control on membership as both Board and AC are elected exclusively
by them while the ultimate power about policies must always be
with community, otherwise there is no bottom-up process.<br>
</p>
<p>The existence of AC as it is is already something exotic. Plus
the fact the AC represents only membership and not community
unbalances the process and in a odd scenario could exclude
community totally from the process in practice.<br>
I understand you appraisal to this due the results so far, and
that may have been because there have been majority of good people
in both Board and AC, or as you said people involved in the
process have behaved according to the requirements. But that is
not, by far, a good governance model as if the people on these
bodies change in the future it allows a easy takeover of the
process by bad actors. So in the sense ARIN have had some luck so
far.<br>
Of course those who currently retaining the power would have
justification for this model as it fits well for them and will say
that everything is fine, but looking from the theoretic point of
view there is an unbalance as members should not have the ultimate
authority of what a policy should be, but the community which is
above them on this matter.</p>
<p>Fernando<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 08/09/2021 17:45, Owen DeLong via
ARIN-PPML wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:BBD3BD9E-2F6B-40E9-BC31-D6F04821B3B3@delong.com">
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<br class="">
<div><br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On Sep 7, 2021, at 11:34 , Elvis Daniel Velea
<<a href="mailto:elvis@velea.eu" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">elvis@velea.eu</a>> wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class="">
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charset=UTF-8" class="">
<div dir="auto" class="">Hi Chris,
<div dir="ltr" class=""><br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">On Sep 7, 2021, at
11:04, Chris Woodfield <<a
href="mailto:chris@semihuman.com" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">chris@semihuman.com</a>>
wrote:<br class="">
<br class="">
</blockquote>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
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charset=UTF-8" class="">
Don’t forget the the ultimate say does, in fact, lie
with the community, in that the members of the Board
and the Advisory Council are elected by the community.</div>
</blockquote>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Allow me to be skeptical about this
statement too. I vaguely remember how a well respected
board member was not ‘selected’ for candidacy for
re-election and was not allowed to defend its seat
because some group of people made a decision. This
happened just a few years ago and I had quite a few
chats with lots of community members that were outraged
to see this is possible. It was during an ARIN Meeting
in Vancouver, in 2018, if my memory serves me well.</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br class="">
</div>
Yes, the nominating committee has broad discretion in
eliminating candidates from the slate, including incumbents.</div>
<div><br class="">
</div>
<div>Also, they are not elected by the community, they are elected
by the membership (in both cases, board and AC).</div>
<div><br class="">
</div>
<div>As such, the members arguably have ultimate authority. The
community has a say, but no actual authority.</div>
<div><br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">
<div dir="auto" class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
<div class="">While there’s always the potential for a
cynical take on the community’s ability to affect
meaningful change when needed, I’d hope that any
egregious policy decisions made by these bodies -
decisions that the community agrees are not in line
with their collective interests - would result in
the Board and/or AC members responsible for those
decisions having a much more difficult time with
their future re-election campaigns than they would
otherwise.</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">PDP shouldn’t really work this way.
Bottom-up either.</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br class="">
</div>
In the ARIN region, it has been mostly functional as we have
generally had both AC and Board members acting in good faith,
along with staff doing the same.</div>
<div><br class="">
</div>
<div>I will credit John’s long leadership with much of this. While
John and I do not always agree, I have to say that he has done
an excellent job of preserving this model of governance and
ensuring that staff and the others involved in the process are
behaving according to the requirements of their office(s). Much
like the late senator McCain, though I rarely agreed with him,
both “Johns" have given a great many years of good and faithful
service to a public that owes them both gratitude and respect.</div>
<div><br class="">
</div>
<div>Owen</div>
<div><br class="">
</div>
<div><br class="">
</div>
<div><br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">
<div dir="auto" class="">
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">/elvis</div>
<br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">-Chris</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On Sep 7, 2021, at 10:49 AM,
Fernando Frediani <<a
href="mailto:fhfrediani@gmail.com"
class="" moz-do-not-send="true">fhfrediani@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class="">
<div dir="auto" class="">Hi Elvis
<div dir="auto" class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div dir="auto" class="">I have the same
view as you do.</div>
<div dir="auto" class="">Despite this
undertanding (and maybe the Board too -
and correct me if I don't reproduce it
accuratelly) I refuse the view that "PDP
is a concession of the Board to the
Community" and - this is what makes it
even more controvertial - that 'this
does not void ICP-2" due to historical
reasons or whatever justification.</div>
<div dir="auto" class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div dir="auto" class="">They are
entiteled to their opinion but I do not
believe that corrensponds to practical
realitty.</div>
<div dir="auto" class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div dir="auto" class="">I sincerelly hope
that not only ARIN Board by any other
RIR Board never void the bottom-up
process and respect the ultimate power
of community to choose how policies will
be, not the Board unilaterally at their
will.</div>
<div dir="auto" class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div dir="auto" class="">Obviouslly this
doesn't confuse with the prerrogative of
the RIR Board to care about the
organization protection and legal
protection and I support that including
the prerrogative of the Boards to
ractify proposals that reached
consensus.</div>
<div dir="auto" class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div dir="auto" class="">Regards</div>
<div dir="auto" class="">Fernando</div>
</div>
<br class="">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue,
7 Sep 2021, 14:10 Elvis Daniel Velea,
<<a href="mailto:elvis@velea.eu"
class="" moz-do-not-send="true">elvis@velea.eu</a>>
wrote:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px
#ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="auto" class="">Hi,<br class="">
<div dir="ltr" class=""><br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">On
Sep 7, 2021, at 09:10, Owen DeLong
via ARIN-PPML <<a
href="mailto:arin-ppml@arin.net"
target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"
class="" moz-do-not-send="true">arin-ppml@arin.net</a>>
wrote:<br class="">
<br class="">
</blockquote>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">
<div
style="word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space"
class="">
<blockquote style="margin:0
0 0
40px;border:none;padding:0px"
class="">
<div class="">While the
Board delegates the
administration of policy
development routinely to
the ARIN AC, but it
retains ultimate
authority commensurate
with the responsibility
that they must bear for
the organization.</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
This is a very useful
clarification to have available
for those who continue to argue
that the community is the ultimate
authority on policy matters. Thank
you.</div>
</blockquote>
<br class="">
<div class="">Very surprised to see
John explain how the bottom-up
process works (or not) in ARIN and
how much influence the ARIN Board
has on policy.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">I am also extremely
surprised to see the difference in
PDP between ARIN and the rest of the
RIRs as per John’s statement above.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Elvis</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
</div>
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