<html>
  <head>
    <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
  </head>
  <body>
    <p>I don't think this is something to celebrate as it puts over
      control on membership as both Board and AC are elected exclusively
      by them while the ultimate power about policies must always be
      with community, otherwise there is no bottom-up process.<br>
    </p>
    <p>The existence of AC as it is is already something exotic. Plus
      the fact the AC represents only membership and not community
      unbalances the process and in a odd scenario could exclude
      community totally from the process in practice.<br>
      I understand you appraisal to this due the results so far, and
      that may have been because there have been majority of good people
      in both Board and AC, or as you said people involved in the
      process have behaved according to the requirements. But that is
      not, by far, a good governance model as if the people on these
      bodies change in the future it allows a easy takeover of the
      process by bad actors. So in the sense ARIN have had some luck so
      far.<br>
      Of course those who currently retaining the power would have
      justification for this model as it fits well for them and will say
      that everything is fine, but looking from the theoretic point of
      view there is an unbalance as members should not have the ultimate
      authority of what a policy should be, but the community which is
      above them on this matter.</p>
    <p>Fernando<br>
    </p>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 08/09/2021 17:45, Owen DeLong via
      ARIN-PPML wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite"
      cite="mid:BBD3BD9E-2F6B-40E9-BC31-D6F04821B3B3@delong.com">
      <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
      <br class="">
      <div><br class="">
        <blockquote type="cite" class="">
          <div class="">On Sep 7, 2021, at 11:34 , Elvis Daniel Velea
            <<a href="mailto:elvis@velea.eu" class=""
              moz-do-not-send="true">elvis@velea.eu</a>> wrote:</div>
          <br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
          <div class="">
            <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html;
              charset=UTF-8" class="">
            <div dir="auto" class="">Hi Chris,
              <div dir="ltr" class=""><br class="">
                <blockquote type="cite" class="">On Sep 7, 2021, at
                  11:04, Chris Woodfield <<a
                    href="mailto:chris@semihuman.com" class=""
                    moz-do-not-send="true">chris@semihuman.com</a>>
                  wrote:<br class="">
                  <br class="">
                </blockquote>
              </div>
              <blockquote type="cite" class="">
                <div dir="ltr" class="">
                  <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
                    charset=UTF-8" class="">
                  Don’t forget the the ultimate say does, in fact, lie
                  with the community, in that the members of the Board
                  and the Advisory Council are elected by the community.</div>
              </blockquote>
              <div class=""><br class="">
              </div>
              <div class="">Allow me to be skeptical about this
                statement too. I vaguely remember how a well respected
                board member was not ‘selected’ for candidacy for
                re-election and was not allowed to defend its seat
                because some group of people made a decision. This
                happened just a few years ago and I had quite a few
                chats with lots of community members that were outraged
                to see this is possible. It was during an ARIN Meeting
                in Vancouver, in 2018, if my memory serves me well.</div>
            </div>
          </div>
        </blockquote>
        <div><br class="">
        </div>
        Yes, the nominating committee has broad discretion in
        eliminating candidates from the slate, including incumbents.</div>
      <div><br class="">
      </div>
      <div>Also, they are not elected by the community, they are elected
        by the membership (in both cases, board and AC).</div>
      <div><br class="">
      </div>
      <div>As such, the members arguably have ultimate authority. The
        community has a say, but no actual authority.</div>
      <div><br class="">
        <blockquote type="cite" class="">
          <div class="">
            <div dir="auto" class="">
              <blockquote type="cite" class="">
                <div dir="ltr" class="">
                  <div class="">While there’s always the potential for a
                    cynical take on the community’s ability to affect
                    meaningful change when needed, I’d hope that any
                    egregious policy decisions made by these bodies -
                    decisions that the community agrees are not in line
                    with their collective interests - would result in
                    the Board and/or AC members responsible for those
                    decisions having a much more difficult time with
                    their future re-election campaigns than they would
                    otherwise.</div>
                </div>
              </blockquote>
              <div class=""><br class="">
              </div>
              <div class="">PDP shouldn’t really work this way.
                Bottom-up either.</div>
            </div>
          </div>
        </blockquote>
        <div><br class="">
        </div>
        In the ARIN region, it has been mostly functional as we have
        generally had both AC and Board members acting in good faith,
        along with staff doing the same.</div>
      <div><br class="">
      </div>
      <div>I will credit John’s long leadership with much of this. While
        John and I do not always agree, I have to say that he has done
        an excellent job of preserving this model of governance and
        ensuring that staff and the others involved in the process are
        behaving according to the requirements of their office(s). Much
        like the late senator McCain, though I rarely agreed with him,
        both “Johns" have given a great many years of good and faithful
        service to a public that owes them both gratitude and respect.</div>
      <div><br class="">
      </div>
      <div>Owen</div>
      <div><br class="">
      </div>
      <div><br class="">
      </div>
      <div><br class="">
        <blockquote type="cite" class="">
          <div class="">
            <div dir="auto" class="">
              <div class=""><br class="">
              </div>
              <div class="">/elvis</div>
              <br class="">
              <blockquote type="cite" class="">
                <div dir="ltr" class="">
                  <div class="">
                    <div class="">
                      <div class=""><br class="">
                      </div>
                      <div class="">-Chris</div>
                      <div class=""><br class="">
                        <blockquote type="cite" class="">
                          <div class="">On Sep 7, 2021, at 10:49 AM,
                            Fernando Frediani <<a
                              href="mailto:fhfrediani@gmail.com"
                              class="" moz-do-not-send="true">fhfrediani@gmail.com</a>>
                            wrote:</div>
                          <br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
                          <div class="">
                            <div dir="auto" class="">Hi Elvis
                              <div dir="auto" class=""><br class="">
                              </div>
                              <div dir="auto" class="">I have the same
                                view as you do.</div>
                              <div dir="auto" class="">Despite this
                                undertanding (and maybe the Board too -
                                and correct me if I don't reproduce it
                                accuratelly) I refuse the view that "PDP
                                is a concession of the Board to the
                                Community" and - this is what makes it
                                even more controvertial - that 'this
                                does not void ICP-2" due to historical
                                reasons or whatever justification.</div>
                              <div dir="auto" class=""><br class="">
                              </div>
                              <div dir="auto" class="">They are
                                entiteled to their opinion but I do not
                                believe that corrensponds to practical
                                realitty.</div>
                              <div dir="auto" class=""><br class="">
                              </div>
                              <div dir="auto" class="">I sincerelly hope
                                that not only ARIN Board by any other
                                RIR Board never void the bottom-up
                                process and respect the ultimate power
                                of community to choose how policies will
                                be, not the Board unilaterally at their
                                will.</div>
                              <div dir="auto" class=""><br class="">
                              </div>
                              <div dir="auto" class="">Obviouslly this
                                doesn't confuse with the prerrogative of
                                the RIR Board to care about the
                                organization protection and legal
                                protection and I support that including
                                the prerrogative of the Boards to
                                ractify proposals that reached
                                consensus.</div>
                              <div dir="auto" class=""><br class="">
                              </div>
                              <div dir="auto" class="">Regards</div>
                              <div dir="auto" class="">Fernando</div>
                            </div>
                            <br class="">
                            <div class="gmail_quote">
                              <div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue,
                                7 Sep 2021, 14:10 Elvis Daniel Velea,
                                <<a href="mailto:elvis@velea.eu"
                                  class="" moz-do-not-send="true">elvis@velea.eu</a>>
                                wrote:<br class="">
                              </div>
                              <blockquote class="gmail_quote"
                                style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px
                                #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
                                <div dir="auto" class="">Hi,<br class="">
                                  <div dir="ltr" class=""><br class="">
                                    <blockquote type="cite" class="">On
                                      Sep 7, 2021, at 09:10, Owen DeLong
                                      via ARIN-PPML <<a
                                        href="mailto:arin-ppml@arin.net"
                                        target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"
                                        class="" moz-do-not-send="true">arin-ppml@arin.net</a>>
                                      wrote:<br class="">
                                      <br class="">
                                    </blockquote>
                                  </div>
                                  <blockquote type="cite" class="">
                                    <div dir="ltr" class="">
                                      <blockquote type="cite" class="">
                                        <div class="">
                                          <div
                                            style="word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space"
                                            class="">
                                            <blockquote style="margin:0
                                              0 0
                                              40px;border:none;padding:0px"
                                              class="">
                                              <div class="">While the
                                                Board delegates the
                                                administration of policy
                                                development routinely to
                                                the ARIN AC, but it
                                                retains ultimate
                                                authority commensurate
                                                with the responsibility
                                                that they must bear for
                                                the organization.</div>
                                            </blockquote>
                                          </div>
                                        </div>
                                      </blockquote>
                                      <div class=""><br class="">
                                      </div>
                                      This is a very useful
                                      clarification to have available
                                      for those who continue to argue
                                      that the community is the ultimate
                                      authority on policy matters. Thank
                                      you.</div>
                                  </blockquote>
                                  <br class="">
                                  <div class="">Very surprised to see
                                    John explain how the bottom-up
                                    process works (or not) in ARIN and
                                    how much influence the ARIN Board
                                    has on policy.</div>
                                  <div class=""><br class="">
                                  </div>
                                  <div class="">I am also extremely
                                    surprised to see the difference in
                                    PDP between ARIN and the rest of the
                                    RIRs as per John’s statement above.</div>
                                  <div class=""><br class="">
                                  </div>
                                  <div class="">Elvis</div>
                                  <div class=""><br class="">
                                  </div>
                                  <div class=""><br class="">
                                  </div>
                                </div>
_______________________________________________<br class="">
                                ARIN-PPML<br class="">
                                You are receiving this message because
                                you are subscribed to<br class="">
                                the ARIN Public Policy Mailing List (<a
                                  href="mailto:ARIN-PPML@arin.net"
                                  target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"
                                  class="" moz-do-not-send="true">ARIN-PPML@arin.net</a>).<br
                                  class="">
                                Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list
                                subscription at:<br class="">
                                <a
                                  href="https://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml"
                                  rel="noreferrer noreferrer"
                                  target="_blank" class=""
                                  moz-do-not-send="true">https://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml</a><br
                                  class="">
                                Please contact <a
                                  href="mailto:info@arin.net"
                                  target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"
                                  class="" moz-do-not-send="true">info@arin.net</a>
                                if you experience any issues.<br
                                  class="">
                              </blockquote>
                            </div>
_______________________________________________<br class="">
                            ARIN-PPML<br class="">
                            You are receiving this message because you
                            are subscribed to<br class="">
                            the ARIN Public Policy Mailing List (<a
                              href="mailto:ARIN-PPML@arin.net" class=""
                              moz-do-not-send="true">ARIN-PPML@arin.net</a>).<br
                              class="">
                            Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list
                            subscription at:<br class="">
                            <a
                              href="https://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml"
                              class="" moz-do-not-send="true">https://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml</a><br
                              class="">
                            Please contact <a
                              href="mailto:info@arin.net" class=""
                              moz-do-not-send="true">info@arin.net</a>
                            if you experience any issues.<br class="">
                          </div>
                        </blockquote>
                      </div>
                      <br class="">
                    </div>
                  </div>
                  <span class="">_______________________________________________</span><br
                    class="">
                  <span class="">ARIN-PPML</span><br class="">
                  <span class="">You are receiving this message because
                    you are subscribed to</span><br class="">
                  <span class="">the ARIN Public Policy Mailing List (<a
                      href="mailto:ARIN-PPML@arin.net" class=""
                      moz-do-not-send="true">ARIN-PPML@arin.net</a>).</span><br
                    class="">
                  <span class="">Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list
                    subscription at:</span><br class="">
                  <span class=""><a
                      href="https://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml"
                      class="" moz-do-not-send="true">https://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml</a></span><br
                    class="">
                  <span class="">Please contact <a
                      href="mailto:info@arin.net" class=""
                      moz-do-not-send="true">info@arin.net</a> if you
                    experience any issues.</span><br class="">
                </div>
              </blockquote>
            </div>
            _______________________________________________<br class="">
            ARIN-PPML<br class="">
            You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to<br
              class="">
            the ARIN Public Policy Mailing List (<a
              href="mailto:ARIN-PPML@arin.net" class=""
              moz-do-not-send="true">ARIN-PPML@arin.net</a>).<br
              class="">
            Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:<br
              class="">
            <a href="https://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml"
              class="" moz-do-not-send="true">https://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml</a><br
              class="">
            Please contact <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:info@arin.net">info@arin.net</a> if you experience any issues.<br
              class="">
          </div>
        </blockquote>
      </div>
      <br class="">
      <br>
      <fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
      <pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">_______________________________________________
ARIN-PPML
You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to
the ARIN Public Policy Mailing List (<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:ARIN-PPML@arin.net">ARIN-PPML@arin.net</a>).
Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml">https://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml</a>
Please contact <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:info@arin.net">info@arin.net</a> if you experience any issues.
</pre>
    </blockquote>
  </body>
</html>