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<p>That's more an opinion than a fact.</p>
<p>I understand that despite what it really it you are wishing for
some court decision from some misguided judge to force something
that is not like that just because that benefits a small set of
actors.<br>
The good side of it is that even if that happens that will never
prevail at the end. This subject is much beyond any particular or
private interest for such a big change.</p>
<p>If judges analyzing this topic gather the necessary information
(and there is a lot on the contrary of your wishes) they will not
decide in that weird way.<br>
It seems an court order is the best you can try to get.</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 03/09/2021 10:57, Lu Heng wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAAvCx3jwdugDQem87Yo2ZCh3oASvh1NcYJjgNcYV4ZF0L5aekw@mail.gmail.com">
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<div dir="auto">Hi Scott:</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto"><span style="word-spacing:1px;color:rgb(49,49,49)">“In
some places, perhaps. The difference here is the global
nature of the </span><br
style="color:rgb(49,49,49);word-spacing:1px">
<span style="word-spacing:1px;color:rgb(49,49,49)">resources
under discussion means that a ruling in one jurisdiction may </span><br
style="color:rgb(49,49,49);word-spacing:1px">
<span style="word-spacing:1px;color:rgb(49,49,49)">have little
to no effect on others. Rest assured that any such court
case </span><br style="color:rgb(49,49,49);word-spacing:1px">
<span style="word-spacing:1px;color:rgb(49,49,49)">would attract
amicus briefs, among other mechanisms, from other relevant </span><br
style="color:rgb(49,49,49);word-spacing:1px">
<span style="word-spacing:1px;color:rgb(49,49,49)">parties and
stakeholders to make sure said court has full understanding
of </span><br style="color:rgb(49,49,49);word-spacing:1px">
<span style="word-spacing:1px;color:rgb(49,49,49)">issues at
play.”</span><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto"><span style="word-spacing:1px;color:rgb(49,49,49)"><br>
</span></div>
<div dir="auto"><span style="word-spacing:1px;color:rgb(49,49,49)">
<div><a
href="https://labs.ripe.net/author/ciaran_byrne/a-first-for-the-ripe-ncc-seizure-of-the-right-to-registration-of-ipv4-addresses-for-the-recovery-of-money/"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://labs.ripe.net/author/ciaran_byrne/a-first-for-the-ripe-ncc-seizure-of-the-right-to-registration-of-ipv4-addresses-for-the-recovery-of-money/</a></div>
<br>
</span></div>
<div dir="auto"><span style="word-spacing:1px;color:rgb(49,49,49)">I
think it’s time for you to show how many amicus briefs you can
get to teach Dutch court it is not an asset.</span></div>
<div dir="auto"><span style="word-spacing:1px;color:rgb(49,49,49)"><br>
</span></div>
<div dir="auto"><span style="word-spacing:1px;color:rgb(49,49,49)">Go
ahead:)</span></div>
<div><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr"><<a
href="mailto:scott@solarnetone.org" moz-do-not-send="true">scott@solarnetone.org</a>>于2021年9月3日
周五下午4:28写道：<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204)"><br>
<br>
> > Who decides this? All those asset purchase
agreement wasn’t<br>
> signed out of<br>
> > blue.<br>
><br>
> Agreements made among men and women based on
erroneous premises<br>
> are no<br>
> more relevant that two people agreeing that the
sky contains no<br>
> stars;<br>
> either they are both blind, they are both fooling
only<br>
> themselves, or one<br>
> is dishonest, fooling the other, who is blind.<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> And why make you the authority to decide what is asset
what is not?<br>
<br>
I never claimed to make these decisions. The pioneers who
invented and <br>
grew the network wisely embedded that authority in
organizations <br>
composed of peers who came by their votes meritocratically,
and choose by <br>
consensus.<br>
<br>
> <br>
> Last time I check those power is with court.<br>
><br>
<br>
In some places, perhaps. The difference here is the global
nature of the <br>
resources under discussion means that a ruling in one
jurisdiction may <br>
have little to no effect on others. Rest assured that any
such court case <br>
would attract amicus briefs, among other mechanisms, from
other relevant <br>
parties and stakeholders to make sure said court has full
understanding of <br>
issues at play.<br>
<br>
><br>
> ><br>
> > Number itself might not constitute asset.
However registration<br>
> in an unique<br>
> > database surely is.<br>
> ><br>
><br>
> Said registration comes with responsibilites as
well as rights. <br>
> Consider<br>
> it more a position of trust to manage the assets
ethically. <br>
> Such a<br>
> position can be revoked, if that trust is broken.<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> That is up for the court to decide, it is uncharted
territory if RIR have<br>
> such power, I think one day, a court case somewhere in
the world will decide<br>
> as such and things will be more clear.<br>
<br>
No, it is reasonably clearly in the hands of the IANA and by
extension, <br>
RIRs.<br>
<br>
<br>
> I suggest that you should contemplate the film
"The Pirates of<br>
> Silicon<br>
> Valley" for a bit of historical perspective on
these two<br>
> figures. You may<br>
> find that you just proved my point.<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> No, I will not, I have my view on those two persons and
you title yours—I<br>
> don’t need some film to firm such view.<br>
><br>
<br>
That is your loss. Pity too, I had hoped you would be open
minded enough <br>
to consider perspectives that exist somewhere other than
between your own <br>
ears, particularly reasonably accurate historical accounts
relevant to a <br>
point of discussion.<br>
<br>
> What makes you assume I am advocating for
anything? I was<br>
> simply refuting<br>
> your point that capitalism rewards pioneers.
Nikola Tesla, and a<br>
> great<br>
> many other true pioneers might disagree with you,
were they<br>
> alive and here<br>
> to do so.<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> Capitalism rewards pioneers, does not means it rewards
all pioneers.<br>
<br>
It occasionaly rewards some pioneers, and sometimes strips
those pioneers <br>
of everything, instead handing their rewards to the
unscrupulous who are <br>
willing to exploit those pioneers.<br>
<br>
> <br>
><br>
> > Capitalism can be flawed except it is the
best mankind<br>
> > have discover so far.<br>
><br>
> Perhaps, perhaps not. You are, however, entitled
to your<br>
> opinion. Be<br>
> aware that stating your opinion does not
constitute fact.<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> I never claim it is fact. But what is your opinion of
best form of society?<br>
> Communism?<br>
<br>
You term an economic system as a form of society, but a
society has a <br>
great many more components than just how commerce is
transacted.<br>
<br>
I am not sure we have defined it yet, but we can. There is
a society <br>
possible, by means of advanced technology applied
selflessly, where there <br>
is abundance for all, crafted not only from mutual respect
and <br>
cooperation, but also with that same respect for nature and
her resources. <br>
If you need to put a name on it, call it Roddenberryism.<br>
<br>
<br>
Notwithstanding all this conjecture, I will remind you that
there is only <br>
one stream from which to drink, yet all need to drink to
live. As such, <br>
no one will be allowed to dam the stream, and claim the
water as their <br>
own.<br>
<br>
There is a simple solution, however, to the issue of number
resource <br>
exhaustion and scarcity, which has robust and proven
technology already <br>
developed to effect it: sunset IPv4, and migrate to IPv6,
where this <br>
scarcity does not exist. Nobody wishes to speak of this,
however, because <br>
capitalism has functioned, in this case, to retard progress.<br>
<br>
This is analogous to the situation we find ourselves in as a
society: We <br>
consume the finite resources of this planet at an ever
increasing rate in <br>
an unquenchable thirst for more growth and profit, while
destroying <br>
biodiversity, and making our planet unlivable for the
generations who will <br>
come after us. Solutions for sustainability exist, but like
IPv6, they <br>
eradicate existing profit streams of the entrenched
incumbants, and are <br>
therefore frowned upon from on high, while those on the
bottom pay the <br>
highest price for that hubris.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > ><br>
> > ><br>
> > > <<a
href="mailto:scott@solarnetone.org" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">scott@solarnetone.org</a>>于2021年9月3日<br>
> 周五下午12:45写道：<br>
> > > There is but one stream
from which to drink,<br>
> which<br>
> > belongs to<br>
> > > everyone.<br>
> > > We simply ensure that the
weakest may also<br>
> drink, by<br>
> > preventing<br>
> > > the<br>
> > > strong from damming the
stream, and claiming all<br>
> the<br>
> > water to be<br>
> > > theirs.<br>
> > ><br>
> > > On Fri, 3 Sep 2021, Lu Heng
wrote:<br>
> > ><br>
> > > > Taking out the market
and middle man, have one<br>
> central<br>
> > body<br>
> > > distribute all<br>
> > > > resources and reclaim
them when not needed.<br>
> > > ><br>
> > > > Wasn’t humanity spend
entire 20 century with<br>
> millions<br>
> > life<br>
> > > dead to proof it<br>
> > > > won’t work?<br>
> > > ><br>
> > > > <<a
href="mailto:scott@solarnetone.org" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">scott@solarnetone.org</a>>于2021年9月3日<br>
> > 周五下午12:03写道：<br>
> > > > +1<br>
> > > ><br>
> > > > Agreed. The
middleman with no<br>
> infrastructure<br>
> > business<br>
> > > model is<br>
> > > > by<br>
> > > > it's very nature
parasitic.<br>
> > > ><br>
> > > > Scott<br>
> > > ><br>
> > > > On Fri, 3 Sep
2021, Fernando Frediani<br>
> wrote:<br>
> > > ><br>
> > > > ><br>
> > > > > Surely
people benefiting from IP<br>
> leasing will<br>
> > keep<br>
> > > trying to<br>
> > > > make it<br>
> > > > > 'normal',
acceptable and part of day<br>
> by day as<br>
> > if<br>
> > > these<br>
> > > > middleman were<br>
> > > > >
facilitating something for the good of<br>
> the<br>
> > internet<br>
> > > while it<br>
> > > > is the<br>
> > > > > opposite.<br>
> > > > > This
practice serves exclusively to<br>
> the<br>
> > financial<br>
> > > benefit of<br>
> > > > those who lease<br>
> > > > > (but are
not building any Internet<br>
> > Infrastructure) and<br>
> > > of<br>
> > > > course to the<br>
> > > > > middleman
not the lessee.<br>
> > > > ><br>
> > > > > How can it
be beneficial to lessee<br>
> that has to<br>
> > pay<br>
> > > more they<br>
> > > > would have to<br>
> > > > > spend if
those very same resources<br>
> were<br>
> > recovered by<br>
> > > the RIR<br>
> > > > and<br>
> > > > >
re-distributed directly to that same<br>
> > organization ?<br>
> > > > ><br>
> > > > > It doesn't
matter much how the<br>
> scenario<br>
> > changed in the<br>
> > > past<br>
> > > > and recent<br>
> > > > > years.
There are principles and<br>
> fairness to be<br>
> > > observed and<br>
> > > > they should not<br>
> > > > > change in
order to adjust the interest<br>
> of<br>
> > these few<br>
> > > ones who<br>
> > > > speculate a<br>
> > > > > resource
that doesn't belong to them<br>
> and<br>
> > wasn't<br>
> > > justified for<br>
> > > > that propose.<br>
> > > > > It is just
easier the RIR to recover<br>
> them and<br>
> > do the<br>
> > > right<br>
> > > > thing, for
harder<br>
> > > > > and
stressful it can be it is the<br>
> right thing<br>
> > to be<br>
> > > done.<br>
> > > > ><br>
> > > > > I don't
mean to sound rude to those<br>
> who<br>
> > disagree with<br>
> > > me, but<br>
> > > > I really hope<br>
> > > > > RIRs in
general revoke as much as<br>
> possible<br>
> > addresses<br>
> > > clearly<br>
> > > > being used for<br>
> > > > > leasing
where the resource holder only<br>
> > speculates<br>
> > > them,<br>
> > > > doesn't build
any<br>
> > > > > Internet
infrastructure and where in<br>
> many<br>
> > cases don't<br>
> > > even<br>
> > > > exist<br>
> > > > >
connectivity between the current<br>
> resource<br>
> > holder and<br>
> > > the<br>
> > > > lessee and<br>
> > > > > re-allocate
them to those who truly<br>
> justify.<br>
> > This has<br>
> > > nothing<br>
> > > > to do with<br>
> > > > > interfere
in the business of that<br>
> resource<br>
> > holder.<br>
> > > > ><br>
> > > > > Often those
supporting this misuse of<br>
> IP<br>
> > resources try<br>
> > > to<br>
> > > > paint a picture<br>
> > > > > that those
resources are<br>
> organization's<br>
> > property and<br>
> > > the RIR<br>
> > > > should be<br>
> > > > > unable to
do anything about that. Not<br>
> being a<br>
> > > irrevocable<br>
> > > > properly<br>
> > > > >
organizations own explanations and<br>
> clarity<br>
> > about how<br>
> > > they use<br>
> > > > it according<br>
> > > > > to the what
is in the best interest of<br>
> all<br>
> > those who<br>
> > > developed<br>
> > > > and agreed<br>
> > > > > the current
rules in place and the<br>
> > organization who<br>
> > > has the<br>
> > > > duty to inspect<br>
> > > > > that.
Regardless the commercial model<br>
> of an<br>
> > > organization it<br>
> > > > must adhere to<br>
> > > > > the current
rules and contract they<br>
> previously<br>
> > signed,<br>
> > > not the<br>
> > > > other way<br>
> > > > > round.<br>
> > > > ><br>
> > > > > Also the
understanding that a LIR<br>
> leases IP<br>
> > addresses<br>
> > > is quiet<br>
> > > > wrong. If<br>
> > > > > they are
build Internet<br>
> infrastructure,<br>
> > provide<br>
> > > connectivity<br>
> > > > and charge<br>
> > > > >
administrative fees for the addresses<br>
> they<br>
> > allocate to<br>
> > > that<br>
> > > > customer there<br>
> > > > > is nothing
wrong with it.<br>
> > > > > I
personally can understand the<br>
> permanent<br>
> > Transfer of<br>
> > > > resources and
that has<br>
> > > > > been a more
natural and fair movement<br>
> and why<br>
> > > community agreed<br>
> > > > on that on<br>
> > > > > most RIRs,
but despite some beautiful<br>
> picture<br>
> > painted<br>
> > > IP<br>
> > > > leasing brings
no<br>
> > > > > good to
lessee and to the Internet if<br>
> things<br>
> > can be<br>
> > > done in<br>
> > > > the proper way.<br>
> > > > ><br>
> > > > > Regards<br>
> > > > > Fernando<br>
> > > > ><br>
> > > > > On
02/09/2021 17:39, Ronald F.<br>
> Guilmette<br>
> > wrote:<br>
> > > > ><br>
> > > > > In message<br>
> > >
<058401d7a013$7797d160$66c77420$@<a
href="http://iptrading.com" rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">iptrading.com</a>>,<br>
> > > > > "Mike
Burns" <<a href="mailto:mike@iptrading.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">mike@iptrading.com</a>><br>
> wrote:<br>
> > > > ><br>
> > > > > We tried
the method you've espoused<br>
> below for<br>
> > thirty<br>
> > > years and<br>
> > > > > the result
were a huge amount of<br>
> wasted<br>
> > address space.<br>
> > > Once<br>
> > > > the market<br>
> > > > > was
adopted, many of those addresses<br>
> found a<br>
> > useful<br>
> > > place in<br>
> > > > the routing<br>
> > > > > table.<br>
> > > > ><br>
> > > > > Well, it's
sort of a Catch-22. Mike,<br>
> you're<br>
> > > absolutely right<br>
> > > > that once<br>
> > > > > there was a
free market, a lot of<br>
> stuff came<br>
> > off the<br>
> > > shelves<br>
> > > > and started<br>
> > > > > to be used
productively. But can any<br>
> of us<br>
> > say with<br>
> > > > confidence that
once<br>
> > > > > there was a
free market, a lot of this<br>
> > commodity<br>
> > > (IPv4) that<br>
> > > > was sitting<br>
> > > > > on shelves
didn't just stay there<br>
> -because- of<br>
> > the<br>
> > > open and<br>
> > > > free market...<br>
> > > > > because the
"owners" of those blocks<br>
> > effectively<br>
> > > became<br>
> > > > speculators,
just<br>
> > > > > waiting
arond for the scarcity to<br>
> become more<br>
> > acute,<br>
> > > and for<br>
> > > > the price to<br>
> > > > > go up?<br>
> > > > ><br>
> > > > > (I confess
that I never in my life<br>
> took an<br>
> > economics<br>
> > > class,<br>
> > > > but it seems<br>
> > > > > to me that
the entire field is chock<br>
> full of<br>
> > > head-scratching<br>
> > > > conundrums<br>
> > > > > like
this... situation where you are<br>
> damned if<br>
> > you do<br>
> > > and<br>
> > > > damned if you<br>
> > > > > don't.)<br>
> > > > ><br>
> > > > > The free
pool era is dying, let's put<br>
> a fork<br>
> > in it as<br>
> > > quickly<br>
> > > > as<br>
> > > > > possible
We've seen the corruption<br>
> engendered<br>
> > by the<br>
> > > bait of<br>
> > > > the<br>
> > > > > free pool
in multiple registries now,<br>
> > including our<br>
> > > own.<br>
> > > > ><br>
> > > > > Just
curious Mike... Does this opinion<br>
> on your<br>
> > part<br>
> > > extend<br>
> > > > also to IPv6?<br>
> > > > ><br>
> > > > > Your
old-fashioned method of address<br>
> > distribution<br>
> > > would get<br>
> > > > some<br>
> > > > > addresses
to those in need, I will<br>
> concede<br>
> > that.<br>
> > > However, so<br>
> > > > will<br>
> > > > > leasing
addresses, with that<br>
> demonstration of<br>
> > need<br>
> > > being the<br>
> > > > lease<br>
> > > > > payment.
Will you concede that those<br>
> who pay<br>
> > to lease<br>
> > > > addresses need<br>
> > > > > them?<br>
> > > > ><br>
> > > > > Even if
nobody else does, I certainly<br>
> will. <br>
> > But of<br>
> > > course<br>
> > > > that's not the<br>
> > > > > only issue.<br>
> > > > ><br>
> > > > > The current
Cloud Innovation v.<br>
> AFRINIC thing<br>
> > is in<br>
> > > some ways<br>
> > > > confusing as<br>
> > > > > hell
because it has brought to a head<br>
> > -multiple-<br>
> > > long-standing<br>
> > > > issues that<br>
> > > > > have then
gotten all tangled up with<br>
> one<br>
> > another,<br>
> > > making it<br>
> > > > difficult for<br>
> > > > > anybody to
tease apart the various<br>
> separate<br>
> > issues.<br>
> > > > ><br>
> > > > > One of
these is what might be called<br>
> "equity",<br>
> > i.e.<br>
> > > the social<br>
> > > > desire to<br>
> > > > > help
Africa, a continent and a people<br>
> who have<br>
> > been on<br>
> > > the<br>
> > > > receiving end<br>
> > > > > of so much
exploitation and malevolent<br>
> evil,<br>
> > over the<br>
> > > > centuries, at
the<br>
> > > > > hands of
others.<br>
> > > > ><br>
> > > > > Another
issue is the right and proper<br>
> role of<br>
> > RIRs.<br>
> > > > ><br>
> > > > > Last but
not leas (and perhaps the<br>
> most<br>
> > troubling and<br>
> > > most<br>
> > > > difficult to<br>
> > > > > crack open
in a way that does not<br>
> merely<br>
> > reveal our<br>
> > > individual<br>
> > > > biases) is<br>
> > > > > the
question of the proper role of<br>
> what I will<br>
> > just<br>
> > > call<br>
> > > > "speculators"<br>
> > > > > within any
free market.<br>
> > > > ><br>
> > > > > Contrary to
what some might say, I<br>
> think that<br>
> > when it<br>
> > > comes to<br>
> > > > IPv4 addresse<br>
> > > > > s<br>
> > > > > at least,
it most certainly -is-<br>
> possible to<br>
> > > distinguish<br>
> > > > "speculators"
from<br>
> > > > > actual and
legitimate end users and/or<br>
> > legitimate<br>
> > > brokers &<br>
> > > > middlemen such<br>
> > > > > as
yourself. As I understand it, the<br>
> current<br>
> > system<br>
> > > requires<br>
> > > > people to<br>
> > > > > document
their equipment purchases. <br>
> No<br>
> > equipment<br>
> > > purchases? <br>
> > > > You're almost<br>
> > > > > certainly
just a speculator.<br>
> > > > ><br>
> > > > > So then the
question becomes<br>
> two-fold: (1) Do<br>
> > we want<br>
> > > > speculators in
this<br>
> > > > >
marketplace? and (2) Is there any<br>
> actually<br>
> > feasible<br>
> > > way to<br>
> > > > keep them out<br>
> > > > > of the
"free" market even if the<br>
> collective<br>
> > "we"<br>
> > > firmly<br>
> > > > decided that we<br>
> > > > > wanted to
do so?<br>
> > > > ><br>
> > > > > I
personally don't have answers to any<br>
> of<br>
> > these<br>
> > > questions. I<br>
> > > > would only<br>
> > > > > offer up
the observation that I am<br>
> aware of at<br>
> > least a<br>
> > > few<br>
> > > > speculators at<br>
> > > > > this moment
in time, and it would be<br>
> an<br>
> > understatement<br>
> > > for me<br>
> > > > to say that<br>
> > > > > their
actions seem to me to be both<br>
> glaringly<br>
> > untoward<br>
> > > and<br>
> > > > also unhelpful.<br>
> > > > > But if you
ask me IN GENERAL whether<br>
> > "speculators" are<br>
> > > a<br>
> > > > necessary and
even<br>
> > > > > useful
component of a free market, I<br>
> cannot<br>
> > say they<br>
> > > are not. <br>
> > > > And it seems<br>
> > > > > I may not
be alone in leaving open<br>
> this<br>
> > possibility:<br>
> > > > ><br>
> > > > ><a
href="https://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2016/07/09/the-theranos-implos"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2016/07/09/the-theranos-implos</a><br>
> i<br>
> > o<br>
> > > n-<br>
> > > > a<br>
> > > > ><br>
> > > <br>
>
nd-robert-shiller-on-short-selling-and-complete-markets/<br>
> > > > ><br>
> > > > > Regards,<br>
> > > > > rfg<br>
> > > > ><br>
> >
_______________________________________________<br>
> > > > > ARIN-PPML<br>
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> > > ><br>
> > > > --<br>
> > > > --<br>
> > > > Kind regards.<br>
> > > > Lu<br>
> > > ><br>
> > > ><br>
> > > ><br>
> > ><br>
> > > --<br>
> > > --<br>
> > > Kind regards.<br>
> > > Lu<br>
> > ><br>
> > ><br>
> > ><br>
> ><br>
> > --<br>
> > --<br>
> > Kind regards.<br>
> > Lu<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> <br>
> --<br>
> --<br>
> Kind regards.<br>
> Lu<br>
> <br>
> <br>
></blockquote>
</div>
</div>
-- <br>
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature"
data-smartmail="gmail_signature">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>--<br>
Kind regards.<br>
Lu<br>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
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