<div><br></div><div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr"><<a href="mailto:scott@solarnetone.org">scott@solarnetone.org</a>>于2021年9月3日 周五下午1:12写道：<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204)"><br>
<br>
> No one is claiming anything here, everyone is paying a fair market price for<br>
> what they are using in a scare market. Owning an asset does not constitute a<br>
> crime.<br>
<br>
Being allocated IP addresses from a RIR does not constitute ownership of <br>
an asset, under any circumstances.</blockquote><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Who decides this? All those asset purchase agreement wasn’t signed out of blue.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Number itself might not constitute asset. However registration in an unique database surely is.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204)" dir="auto"><br>
<br>
> Just because you no longer get land for free from the west, doesn’t<br>
> mean anyone today leasing you a house in Bay Area evil. Capitalism rewards<br>
> those who come first, in any market.<br>
<br>
Capitalism, from my experience, rewards many of the worst qualities in <br>
mankind; greed, selfishness, and profit over all things. Unfettered, it <br>
will be civilization's undoing, ecologically. Meanwhile, the strong will <br>
simply continue to steal from the weak, and claim themselves pioneers.<br>
</blockquote><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">That is an accusation without base. Rich must be stealing from the poor, a perfect communist revolution quote.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Most of market are started by pioneers—and some of them are become very rich in the process—bill gates, Steve Jobs, for example. </div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">You experience clearly is not shared in this society, which form of society you are advocating? Capitalism can be flawed except it is the best mankind have discover so far.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204)" dir="auto"><br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <<a href="mailto:scott@solarnetone.org" target="_blank">scott@solarnetone.org</a>>于2021年9月3日 周五下午12:45写道：<br>
> There is but one stream from which to drink, which belongs to<br>
> everyone.<br>
> We simply ensure that the weakest may also drink, by preventing<br>
> the<br>
> strong from damming the stream, and claiming all the water to be<br>
> theirs.<br>
><br>
> On Fri, 3 Sep 2021, Lu Heng wrote:<br>
><br>
> > Taking out the market and middle man, have one central body<br>
> distribute all<br>
> > resources and reclaim them when not needed.<br>
> ><br>
> > Wasn’t humanity spend entire 20 century with millions life<br>
> dead to proof it<br>
> > won’t work?<br>
> ><br>
> > <<a href="mailto:scott@solarnetone.org" target="_blank">scott@solarnetone.org</a>>于2021年9月3日 周五下午12:03写道：<br>
> > +1<br>
> ><br>
> > Agreed. The middleman with no infrastructure business<br>
> model is<br>
> > by<br>
> > it's very nature parasitic.<br>
> ><br>
> > Scott<br>
> ><br>
> > On Fri, 3 Sep 2021, Fernando Frediani wrote:<br>
> ><br>
> > ><br>
> > > Surely people benefiting from IP leasing will keep<br>
> trying to<br>
> > make it<br>
> > > 'normal', acceptable and part of day by day as if<br>
> these<br>
> > middleman were<br>
> > > facilitating something for the good of the internet<br>
> while it<br>
> > is the<br>
> > > opposite.<br>
> > > This practice serves exclusively to the financial<br>
> benefit of<br>
> > those who lease<br>
> > > (but are not building any Internet Infrastructure) and<br>
> of<br>
> > course to the<br>
> > > middleman not the lessee.<br>
> > ><br>
> > > How can it be beneficial to lessee that has to pay<br>
> more they<br>
> > would have to<br>
> > > spend if those very same resources were recovered by<br>
> the RIR<br>
> > and<br>
> > > re-distributed directly to that same organization ?<br>
> > ><br>
> > > It doesn't matter much how the scenario changed in the<br>
> past<br>
> > and recent<br>
> > > years. There are principles and fairness to be<br>
> observed and<br>
> > they should not<br>
> > > change in order to adjust the interest of these few<br>
> ones who<br>
> > speculate a<br>
> > > resource that doesn't belong to them and wasn't<br>
> justified for<br>
> > that propose.<br>
> > > It is just easier the RIR to recover them and do the<br>
> right<br>
> > thing, for harder<br>
> > > and stressful it can be it is the right thing to be<br>
> done.<br>
> > ><br>
> > > I don't mean to sound rude to those who disagree with<br>
> me, but<br>
> > I really hope<br>
> > > RIRs in general revoke as much as possible addresses<br>
> clearly<br>
> > being used for<br>
> > > leasing where the resource holder only speculates<br>
> them,<br>
> > doesn't build any<br>
> > > Internet infrastructure and where in many cases don't<br>
> even<br>
> > exist<br>
> > > connectivity between the current resource holder and<br>
> the<br>
> > lessee and<br>
> > > re-allocate them to those who truly justify. This has<br>
> nothing<br>
> > to do with<br>
> > > interfere in the business of that resource holder.<br>
> > ><br>
> > > Often those supporting this misuse of IP resources try<br>
> to<br>
> > paint a picture<br>
> > > that those resources are organization's property and<br>
> the RIR<br>
> > should be<br>
> > > unable to do anything about that. Not being a<br>
> irrevocable<br>
> > properly<br>
> > > organizations own explanations and clarity about how<br>
> they use<br>
> > it according<br>
> > > to the what is in the best interest of all those who<br>
> developed<br>
> > and agreed<br>
> > > the current rules in place and the organization who<br>
> has the<br>
> > duty to inspect<br>
> > > that. Regardless the commercial model of an<br>
> organization it<br>
> > must adhere to<br>
> > > the current rules and contract they previously signed,<br>
> not the<br>
> > other way<br>
> > > round.<br>
> > ><br>
> > > Also the understanding that a LIR leases IP addresses<br>
> is quiet<br>
> > wrong. If<br>
> > > they are build Internet infrastructure, provide<br>
> connectivity<br>
> > and charge<br>
> > > administrative fees for the addresses they allocate to<br>
> that<br>
> > customer there<br>
> > > is nothing wrong with it.<br>
> > > I personally can understand the permanent Transfer of<br>
> > resources and that has<br>
> > > been a more natural and fair movement and why<br>
> community agreed<br>
> > on that on<br>
> > > most RIRs, but despite some beautiful picture painted<br>
> IP<br>
> > leasing brings no<br>
> > > good to lessee and to the Internet if things can be<br>
> done in<br>
> > the proper way.<br>
> > ><br>
> > > Regards<br>
> > > Fernando<br>
> > ><br>
> > > On 02/09/2021 17:39, Ronald F. Guilmette wrote:<br>
> > ><br>
> > > In message<br>
> <058401d7a013$7797d160$66c77420$@<a href="http://iptrading.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">iptrading.com</a>>,<br>
> > > "Mike Burns" <<a href="mailto:mike@iptrading.com" target="_blank">mike@iptrading.com</a>> wrote:<br>
> > ><br>
> > > We tried the method you've espoused below for thirty<br>
> years and<br>
> > > the result were a huge amount of wasted address space.<br>
> Once<br>
> > the market<br>
> > > was adopted, many of those addresses found a useful<br>
> place in<br>
> > the routing<br>
> > > table.<br>
> > ><br>
> > > Well, it's sort of a Catch-22. Mike, you're<br>
> absolutely right<br>
> > that once<br>
> > > there was a free market, a lot of stuff came off the<br>
> shelves<br>
> > and started<br>
> > > to be used productively. But can any of us say with<br>
> > confidence that once<br>
> > > there was a free market, a lot of this commodity<br>
> (IPv4) that<br>
> > was sitting<br>
> > > on shelves didn't just stay there -because- of the<br>
> open and<br>
> > free market...<br>
> > > because the "owners" of those blocks effectively<br>
> became<br>
> > speculators, just<br>
> > > waiting arond for the scarcity to become more acute,<br>
> and for<br>
> > the price to<br>
> > > go up?<br>
> > ><br>
> > > (I confess that I never in my life took an economics<br>
> class,<br>
> > but it seems<br>
> > > to me that the entire field is chock full of<br>
> head-scratching<br>
> > conundrums<br>
> > > like this... situation where you are damned if you do<br>
> and<br>
> > damned if you<br>
> > > don't.)<br>
> > ><br>
> > > The free pool era is dying, let's put a fork in it as<br>
> quickly<br>
> > as<br>
> > > possible We've seen the corruption engendered by the<br>
> bait of<br>
> > the<br>
> > > free pool in multiple registries now, including our<br>
> own.<br>
> > ><br>
> > > Just curious Mike... Does this opinion on your part<br>
> extend<br>
> > also to IPv6?<br>
> > ><br>
> > > Your old-fashioned method of address distribution<br>
> would get<br>
> > some<br>
> > > addresses to those in need, I will concede that.<br>
> However, so<br>
> > will<br>
> > > leasing addresses, with that demonstration of need<br>
> being the<br>
> > lease<br>
> > > payment. Will you concede that those who pay to lease<br>
> > addresses need<br>
> > > them?<br>
> > ><br>
> > > Even if nobody else does, I certainly will. But of<br>
> course<br>
> > that's not the<br>
> > > only issue.<br>
> > ><br>
> > > The current Cloud Innovation v. AFRINIC thing is in<br>
> some ways<br>
> > confusing as<br>
> > > hell because it has brought to a head -multiple-<br>
> long-standing<br>
> > issues that<br>
> > > have then gotten all tangled up with one another,<br>
> making it<br>
> > difficult for<br>
> > > anybody to tease apart the various separate issues.<br>
> > ><br>
> > > One of these is what might be called "equity", i.e.<br>
> the social<br>
> > desire to<br>
> > > help Africa, a continent and a people who have been on<br>
> the<br>
> > receiving end<br>
> > > of so much exploitation and malevolent evil, over the<br>
> > centuries, at the<br>
> > > hands of others.<br>
> > ><br>
> > > Another issue is the right and proper role of RIRs.<br>
> > ><br>
> > > Last but not leas (and perhaps the most troubling and<br>
> most<br>
> > difficult to<br>
> > > crack open in a way that does not merely reveal our<br>
> individual<br>
> > biases) is<br>
> > > the question of the proper role of what I will just<br>
> call<br>
> > "speculators"<br>
> > > within any free market.<br>
> > ><br>
> > > Contrary to what some might say, I think that when it<br>
> comes to<br>
> > IPv4 addresse<br>
> > > s<br>
> > > at least, it most certainly -is- possible to<br>
> distinguish<br>
> > "speculators" from<br>
> > > actual and legitimate end users and/or legitimate<br>
> brokers &<br>
> > middlemen such<br>
> > > as yourself. As I understand it, the current system<br>
> requires<br>
> > people to<br>
> > > document their equipment purchases. No equipment<br>
> purchases? <br>
> > You're almost<br>
> > > certainly just a speculator.<br>
> > ><br>
> > > So then the question becomes two-fold: (1) Do we want<br>
> > speculators in this<br>
> > > marketplace? and (2) Is there any actually feasible<br>
> way to<br>
> > keep them out<br>
> > > of the "free" market even if the collective "we"<br>
> firmly<br>
> > decided that we<br>
> > > wanted to do so?<br>
> > ><br>
> > > I personally don't have answers to any of these<br>
> questions. I<br>
> > would only<br>
> > > offer up the observation that I am aware of at least a<br>
> few<br>
> > speculators at<br>
> > > this moment in time, and it would be an understatement<br>
> for me<br>
> > to say that<br>
> > > their actions seem to me to be both glaringly untoward<br>
> and<br>
> > also unhelpful.<br>
> > > But if you ask me IN GENERAL whether "speculators" are<br>
> a<br>
> > necessary and even<br>
> > > useful component of a free market, I cannot say they<br>
> are not. <br>
> > And it seems<br>
> > > I may not be alone in leaving open this possibility:<br>
> > ><br>
> > ><a href="https://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2016/07/09/the-theranos-implosio" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2016/07/09/the-theranos-implosio</a><br>
> n-<br>
> > a<br>
> > ><br>
> nd-robert-shiller-on-short-selling-and-complete-markets/<br>
> > ><br>
> > > Regards,<br>
> > > rfg<br>
> > > _______________________________________________<br>
> > > ARIN-PPML<br>
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> > > Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription<br>
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> > ><br>
> > ><br>
> > _______________________________________________<br>
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> ><br>
> > --<br>
> > --<br>
> > Kind regards.<br>
> > Lu<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> <br>
> --<br>
> --<br>
> Kind regards.<br>
> Lu<br>
> <br>
> <br>
></blockquote></div></div>-- <br><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div>--<br>Kind regards.<br>Lu<br><br></div></div></div>