<div dir="auto">Hi Scott:</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto"><span style="word-spacing:1px;color:rgb(49,49,49)">“In some places, perhaps. The difference here is the global nature of the </span><br style="color:rgb(49,49,49);word-spacing:1px"><span style="word-spacing:1px;color:rgb(49,49,49)">resources under discussion means that a ruling in one jurisdiction may </span><br style="color:rgb(49,49,49);word-spacing:1px"><span style="word-spacing:1px;color:rgb(49,49,49)">have little to no effect on others. Rest assured that any such court case </span><br style="color:rgb(49,49,49);word-spacing:1px"><span style="word-spacing:1px;color:rgb(49,49,49)">would attract amicus briefs, among other mechanisms, from other relevant </span><br style="color:rgb(49,49,49);word-spacing:1px"><span style="word-spacing:1px;color:rgb(49,49,49)">parties and stakeholders to make sure said court has full understanding of </span><br style="color:rgb(49,49,49);word-spacing:1px"><span style="word-spacing:1px;color:rgb(49,49,49)">issues at play.”</span><br></div><div dir="auto"><span style="word-spacing:1px;color:rgb(49,49,49)"><br></span></div><div dir="auto"><span style="word-spacing:1px;color:rgb(49,49,49)"><div><a href="https://labs.ripe.net/author/ciaran_byrne/a-first-for-the-ripe-ncc-seizure-of-the-right-to-registration-of-ipv4-addresses-for-the-recovery-of-money/">https://labs.ripe.net/author/ciaran_byrne/a-first-for-the-ripe-ncc-seizure-of-the-right-to-registration-of-ipv4-addresses-for-the-recovery-of-money/</a></div><br></span></div><div dir="auto"><span style="word-spacing:1px;color:rgb(49,49,49)">I think it’s time for you to show how many amicus briefs you can get to teach Dutch court it is not an asset.</span></div><div dir="auto"><span style="word-spacing:1px;color:rgb(49,49,49)"><br></span></div><div dir="auto"><span style="word-spacing:1px;color:rgb(49,49,49)">Go ahead:)</span></div><div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr"><<a href="mailto:scott@solarnetone.org">scott@solarnetone.org</a>>于2021年9月3日 周五下午4:28写道：<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204)"><br>
<br>
> > Who decides this? All those asset purchase agreement wasn’t<br>
> signed out of<br>
> > blue.<br>
><br>
> Agreements made among men and women based on erroneous premises<br>
> are no<br>
> more relevant that two people agreeing that the sky contains no<br>
> stars;<br>
> either they are both blind, they are both fooling only<br>
> themselves, or one<br>
> is dishonest, fooling the other, who is blind.<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> And why make you the authority to decide what is asset what is not?<br>
<br>
I never claimed to make these decisions. The pioneers who invented and <br>
grew the network wisely embedded that authority in organizations <br>
composed of peers who came by their votes meritocratically, and choose by <br>
consensus.<br>
<br>
> <br>
> Last time I check those power is with court.<br>
><br>
<br>
In some places, perhaps. The difference here is the global nature of the <br>
resources under discussion means that a ruling in one jurisdiction may <br>
have little to no effect on others. Rest assured that any such court case <br>
would attract amicus briefs, among other mechanisms, from other relevant <br>
parties and stakeholders to make sure said court has full understanding of <br>
issues at play.<br>
<br>
><br>
> ><br>
> > Number itself might not constitute asset. However registration<br>
> in an unique<br>
> > database surely is.<br>
> ><br>
><br>
> Said registration comes with responsibilites as well as rights. <br>
> Consider<br>
> it more a position of trust to manage the assets ethically. <br>
> Such a<br>
> position can be revoked, if that trust is broken.<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> That is up for the court to decide, it is uncharted territory if RIR have<br>
> such power, I think one day, a court case somewhere in the world will decide<br>
> as such and things will be more clear.<br>
<br>
No, it is reasonably clearly in the hands of the IANA and by extension, <br>
RIRs.<br>
<br>
<br>
> I suggest that you should contemplate the film "The Pirates of<br>
> Silicon<br>
> Valley" for a bit of historical perspective on these two<br>
> figures. You may<br>
> find that you just proved my point.<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> No, I will not, I have my view on those two persons and you title yours—I<br>
> don’t need some film to firm such view.<br>
><br>
<br>
That is your loss. Pity too, I had hoped you would be open minded enough <br>
to consider perspectives that exist somewhere other than between your own <br>
ears, particularly reasonably accurate historical accounts relevant to a <br>
point of discussion.<br>
<br>
> What makes you assume I am advocating for anything? I was<br>
> simply refuting<br>
> your point that capitalism rewards pioneers. Nikola Tesla, and a<br>
> great<br>
> many other true pioneers might disagree with you, were they<br>
> alive and here<br>
> to do so.<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> Capitalism rewards pioneers, does not means it rewards all pioneers.<br>
<br>
It occasionaly rewards some pioneers, and sometimes strips those pioneers <br>
of everything, instead handing their rewards to the unscrupulous who are <br>
willing to exploit those pioneers.<br>
<br>
> <br>
><br>
> > Capitalism can be flawed except it is the best mankind<br>
> > have discover so far.<br>
><br>
> Perhaps, perhaps not. You are, however, entitled to your<br>
> opinion. Be<br>
> aware that stating your opinion does not constitute fact.<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> I never claim it is fact. But what is your opinion of best form of society?<br>
> Communism?<br>
<br>
You term an economic system as a form of society, but a society has a <br>
great many more components than just how commerce is transacted.<br>
<br>
I am not sure we have defined it yet, but we can. There is a society <br>
possible, by means of advanced technology applied selflessly, where there <br>
is abundance for all, crafted not only from mutual respect and <br>
cooperation, but also with that same respect for nature and her resources. <br>
If you need to put a name on it, call it Roddenberryism.<br>
<br>
<br>
Notwithstanding all this conjecture, I will remind you that there is only <br>
one stream from which to drink, yet all need to drink to live. As such, <br>
no one will be allowed to dam the stream, and claim the water as their <br>
own.<br>
<br>
There is a simple solution, however, to the issue of number resource <br>
exhaustion and scarcity, which has robust and proven technology already <br>
developed to effect it: sunset IPv4, and migrate to IPv6, where this <br>
scarcity does not exist. Nobody wishes to speak of this, however, because <br>
capitalism has functioned, in this case, to retard progress.<br>
<br>
This is analogous to the situation we find ourselves in as a society: We <br>
consume the finite resources of this planet at an ever increasing rate in <br>
an unquenchable thirst for more growth and profit, while destroying <br>
biodiversity, and making our planet unlivable for the generations who will <br>
come after us. Solutions for sustainability exist, but like IPv6, they <br>
eradicate existing profit streams of the entrenched incumbants, and are <br>
therefore frowned upon from on high, while those on the bottom pay the <br>
highest price for that hubris.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > ><br>
> > ><br>
> > > <<a href="mailto:scott@solarnetone.org" target="_blank">scott@solarnetone.org</a>>于2021年9月3日<br>
> 周五下午12:45写道：<br>
> > > There is but one stream from which to drink,<br>
> which<br>
> > belongs to<br>
> > > everyone.<br>
> > > We simply ensure that the weakest may also<br>
> drink, by<br>
> > preventing<br>
> > > the<br>
> > > strong from damming the stream, and claiming all<br>
> the<br>
> > water to be<br>
> > > theirs.<br>
> > ><br>
> > > On Fri, 3 Sep 2021, Lu Heng wrote:<br>
> > ><br>
> > > > Taking out the market and middle man, have one<br>
> central<br>
> > body<br>
> > > distribute all<br>
> > > > resources and reclaim them when not needed.<br>
> > > ><br>
> > > > Wasn’t humanity spend entire 20 century with<br>
> millions<br>
> > life<br>
> > > dead to proof it<br>
> > > > won’t work?<br>
> > > ><br>
> > > > <<a href="mailto:scott@solarnetone.org" target="_blank">scott@solarnetone.org</a>>于2021年9月3日<br>
> > 周五下午12:03写道：<br>
> > > > +1<br>
> > > ><br>
> > > > Agreed. The middleman with no<br>
> infrastructure<br>
> > business<br>
> > > model is<br>
> > > > by<br>
> > > > it's very nature parasitic.<br>
> > > ><br>
> > > > Scott<br>
> > > ><br>
> > > > On Fri, 3 Sep 2021, Fernando Frediani<br>
> wrote:<br>
> > > ><br>
> > > > ><br>
> > > > > Surely people benefiting from IP<br>
> leasing will<br>
> > keep<br>
> > > trying to<br>
> > > > make it<br>
> > > > > 'normal', acceptable and part of day<br>
> by day as<br>
> > if<br>
> > > these<br>
> > > > middleman were<br>
> > > > > facilitating something for the good of<br>
> the<br>
> > internet<br>
> > > while it<br>
> > > > is the<br>
> > > > > opposite.<br>
> > > > > This practice serves exclusively to<br>
> the<br>
> > financial<br>
> > > benefit of<br>
> > > > those who lease<br>
> > > > > (but are not building any Internet<br>
> > Infrastructure) and<br>
> > > of<br>
> > > > course to the<br>
> > > > > middleman not the lessee.<br>
> > > > ><br>
> > > > > How can it be beneficial to lessee<br>
> that has to<br>
> > pay<br>
> > > more they<br>
> > > > would have to<br>
> > > > > spend if those very same resources<br>
> were<br>
> > recovered by<br>
> > > the RIR<br>
> > > > and<br>
> > > > > re-distributed directly to that same<br>
> > organization ?<br>
> > > > ><br>
> > > > > It doesn't matter much how the<br>
> scenario<br>
> > changed in the<br>
> > > past<br>
> > > > and recent<br>
> > > > > years. There are principles and<br>
> fairness to be<br>
> > > observed and<br>
> > > > they should not<br>
> > > > > change in order to adjust the interest<br>
> of<br>
> > these few<br>
> > > ones who<br>
> > > > speculate a<br>
> > > > > resource that doesn't belong to them<br>
> and<br>
> > wasn't<br>
> > > justified for<br>
> > > > that propose.<br>
> > > > > It is just easier the RIR to recover<br>
> them and<br>
> > do the<br>
> > > right<br>
> > > > thing, for harder<br>
> > > > > and stressful it can be it is the<br>
> right thing<br>
> > to be<br>
> > > done.<br>
> > > > ><br>
> > > > > I don't mean to sound rude to those<br>
> who<br>
> > disagree with<br>
> > > me, but<br>
> > > > I really hope<br>
> > > > > RIRs in general revoke as much as<br>
> possible<br>
> > addresses<br>
> > > clearly<br>
> > > > being used for<br>
> > > > > leasing where the resource holder only<br>
> > speculates<br>
> > > them,<br>
> > > > doesn't build any<br>
> > > > > Internet infrastructure and where in<br>
> many<br>
> > cases don't<br>
> > > even<br>
> > > > exist<br>
> > > > > connectivity between the current<br>
> resource<br>
> > holder and<br>
> > > the<br>
> > > > lessee and<br>
> > > > > re-allocate them to those who truly<br>
> justify.<br>
> > This has<br>
> > > nothing<br>
> > > > to do with<br>
> > > > > interfere in the business of that<br>
> resource<br>
> > holder.<br>
> > > > ><br>
> > > > > Often those supporting this misuse of<br>
> IP<br>
> > resources try<br>
> > > to<br>
> > > > paint a picture<br>
> > > > > that those resources are<br>
> organization's<br>
> > property and<br>
> > > the RIR<br>
> > > > should be<br>
> > > > > unable to do anything about that. Not<br>
> being a<br>
> > > irrevocable<br>
> > > > properly<br>
> > > > > organizations own explanations and<br>
> clarity<br>
> > about how<br>
> > > they use<br>
> > > > it according<br>
> > > > > to the what is in the best interest of<br>
> all<br>
> > those who<br>
> > > developed<br>
> > > > and agreed<br>
> > > > > the current rules in place and the<br>
> > organization who<br>
> > > has the<br>
> > > > duty to inspect<br>
> > > > > that. Regardless the commercial model<br>
> of an<br>
> > > organization it<br>
> > > > must adhere to<br>
> > > > > the current rules and contract they<br>
> previously<br>
> > signed,<br>
> > > not the<br>
> > > > other way<br>
> > > > > round.<br>
> > > > ><br>
> > > > > Also the understanding that a LIR<br>
> leases IP<br>
> > addresses<br>
> > > is quiet<br>
> > > > wrong. If<br>
> > > > > they are build Internet<br>
> infrastructure,<br>
> > provide<br>
> > > connectivity<br>
> > > > and charge<br>
> > > > > administrative fees for the addresses<br>
> they<br>
> > allocate to<br>
> > > that<br>
> > > > customer there<br>
> > > > > is nothing wrong with it.<br>
> > > > > I personally can understand the<br>
> permanent<br>
> > Transfer of<br>
> > > > resources and that has<br>
> > > > > been a more natural and fair movement<br>
> and why<br>
> > > community agreed<br>
> > > > on that on<br>
> > > > > most RIRs, but despite some beautiful<br>
> picture<br>
> > painted<br>
> > > IP<br>
> > > > leasing brings no<br>
> > > > > good to lessee and to the Internet if<br>
> things<br>
> > can be<br>
> > > done in<br>
> > > > the proper way.<br>
> > > > ><br>
> > > > > Regards<br>
> > > > > Fernando<br>
> > > > ><br>
> > > > > On 02/09/2021 17:39, Ronald F.<br>
> Guilmette<br>
> > wrote:<br>
> > > > ><br>
> > > > > In message<br>
> > > <058401d7a013$7797d160$66c77420$@<a href="http://iptrading.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">iptrading.com</a>>,<br>
> > > > > "Mike Burns" <<a href="mailto:mike@iptrading.com" target="_blank">mike@iptrading.com</a>><br>
> wrote:<br>
> > > > ><br>
> > > > > We tried the method you've espoused<br>
> below for<br>
> > thirty<br>
> > > years and<br>
> > > > > the result were a huge amount of<br>
> wasted<br>
> > address space.<br>
> > > Once<br>
> > > > the market<br>
> > > > > was adopted, many of those addresses<br>
> found a<br>
> > useful<br>
> > > place in<br>
> > > > the routing<br>
> > > > > table.<br>
> > > > ><br>
> > > > > Well, it's sort of a Catch-22. Mike,<br>
> you're<br>
> > > absolutely right<br>
> > > > that once<br>
> > > > > there was a free market, a lot of<br>
> stuff came<br>
> > off the<br>
> > > shelves<br>
> > > > and started<br>
> > > > > to be used productively. But can any<br>
> of us<br>
> > say with<br>
> > > > confidence that once<br>
> > > > > there was a free market, a lot of this<br>
> > commodity<br>
> > > (IPv4) that<br>
> > > > was sitting<br>
> > > > > on shelves didn't just stay there<br>
> -because- of<br>
> > the<br>
> > > open and<br>
> > > > free market...<br>
> > > > > because the "owners" of those blocks<br>
> > effectively<br>
> > > became<br>
> > > > speculators, just<br>
> > > > > waiting arond for the scarcity to<br>
> become more<br>
> > acute,<br>
> > > and for<br>
> > > > the price to<br>
> > > > > go up?<br>
> > > > ><br>
> > > > > (I confess that I never in my life<br>
> took an<br>
> > economics<br>
> > > class,<br>
> > > > but it seems<br>
> > > > > to me that the entire field is chock<br>
> full of<br>
> > > head-scratching<br>
> > > > conundrums<br>
> > > > > like this... situation where you are<br>
> damned if<br>
> > you do<br>
> > > and<br>
> > > > damned if you<br>
> > > > > don't.)<br>
> > > > ><br>
> > > > > The free pool era is dying, let's put<br>
> a fork<br>
> > in it as<br>
> > > quickly<br>
> > > > as<br>
> > > > > possible We've seen the corruption<br>
> engendered<br>
> > by the<br>
> > > bait of<br>
> > > > the<br>
> > > > > free pool in multiple registries now,<br>
> > including our<br>
> > > own.<br>
> > > > ><br>
> > > > > Just curious Mike... Does this opinion<br>
> on your<br>
> > part<br>
> > > extend<br>
> > > > also to IPv6?<br>
> > > > ><br>
> > > > > Your old-fashioned method of address<br>
> > distribution<br>
> > > would get<br>
> > > > some<br>
> > > > > addresses to those in need, I will<br>
> concede<br>
> > that.<br>
> > > However, so<br>
> > > > will<br>
> > > > > leasing addresses, with that<br>
> demonstration of<br>
> > need<br>
> > > being the<br>
> > > > lease<br>
> > > > > payment. Will you concede that those<br>
> who pay<br>
> > to lease<br>
> > > > addresses need<br>
> > > > > them?<br>
> > > > ><br>
> > > > > Even if nobody else does, I certainly<br>
> will. <br>
> > But of<br>
> > > course<br>
> > > > that's not the<br>
> > > > > only issue.<br>
> > > > ><br>
> > > > > The current Cloud Innovation v.<br>
> AFRINIC thing<br>
> > is in<br>
> > > some ways<br>
> > > > confusing as<br>
> > > > > hell because it has brought to a head<br>
> > -multiple-<br>
> > > long-standing<br>
> > > > issues that<br>
> > > > > have then gotten all tangled up with<br>
> one<br>
> > another,<br>
> > > making it<br>
> > > > difficult for<br>
> > > > > anybody to tease apart the various<br>
> separate<br>
> > issues.<br>
> > > > ><br>
> > > > > One of these is what might be called<br>
> "equity",<br>
> > i.e.<br>
> > > the social<br>
> > > > desire to<br>
> > > > > help Africa, a continent and a people<br>
> who have<br>
> > been on<br>
> > > the<br>
> > > > receiving end<br>
> > > > > of so much exploitation and malevolent<br>
> evil,<br>
> > over the<br>
> > > > centuries, at the<br>
> > > > > hands of others.<br>
> > > > ><br>
> > > > > Another issue is the right and proper<br>
> role of<br>
> > RIRs.<br>
> > > > ><br>
> > > > > Last but not leas (and perhaps the<br>
> most<br>
> > troubling and<br>
> > > most<br>
> > > > difficult to<br>
> > > > > crack open in a way that does not<br>
> merely<br>
> > reveal our<br>
> > > individual<br>
> > > > biases) is<br>
> > > > > the question of the proper role of<br>
> what I will<br>
> > just<br>
> > > call<br>
> > > > "speculators"<br>
> > > > > within any free market.<br>
> > > > ><br>
> > > > > Contrary to what some might say, I<br>
> think that<br>
> > when it<br>
> > > comes to<br>
> > > > IPv4 addresse<br>
> > > > > s<br>
> > > > > at least, it most certainly -is-<br>
> possible to<br>
> > > distinguish<br>
> > > > "speculators" from<br>
> > > > > actual and legitimate end users and/or<br>
> > legitimate<br>
> > > brokers &<br>
> > > > middlemen such<br>
> > > > > as yourself. As I understand it, the<br>
> current<br>
> > system<br>
> > > requires<br>
> > > > people to<br>
> > > > > document their equipment purchases. <br>
> No<br>
> > equipment<br>
> > > purchases? <br>
> > > > You're almost<br>
> > > > > certainly just a speculator.<br>
> > > > ><br>
> > > > > So then the question becomes<br>
> two-fold: (1) Do<br>
> > we want<br>
> > > > speculators in this<br>
> > > > > marketplace? and (2) Is there any<br>
> actually<br>
> > feasible<br>
> > > way to<br>
> > > > keep them out<br>
> > > > > of the "free" market even if the<br>
> collective<br>
> > "we"<br>
> > > firmly<br>
> > > > decided that we<br>
> > > > > wanted to do so?<br>
> > > > ><br>
> > > > > I personally don't have answers to any<br>
> of<br>
> > these<br>
> > > questions. I<br>
> > > > would only<br>
> > > > > offer up the observation that I am<br>
> aware of at<br>
> > least a<br>
> > > few<br>
> > > > speculators at<br>
> > > > > this moment in time, and it would be<br>
> an<br>
> > understatement<br>
> > > for me<br>
> > > > to say that<br>
> > > > > their actions seem to me to be both<br>
> glaringly<br>
> > untoward<br>
> > > and<br>
> > > > also unhelpful.<br>
> > > > > But if you ask me IN GENERAL whether<br>
> > "speculators" are<br>
> > > a<br>
> > > > necessary and even<br>
> > > > > useful component of a free market, I<br>
> cannot<br>
> > say they<br>
> > > are not. <br>
> > > > And it seems<br>
> > > > > I may not be alone in leaving open<br>
> this<br>
> > possibility:<br>
> > > > ><br>
> > > > ><a href="https://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2016/07/09/the-theranos-implos" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2016/07/09/the-theranos-implos</a><br>
> i<br>
> > o<br>
> > > n-<br>
> > > > a<br>
> > > > ><br>
> > > <br>
> nd-robert-shiller-on-short-selling-and-complete-markets/<br>
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> > > > > rfg<br>
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> > > > --<br>
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> > > > Kind regards.<br>
> > > > Lu<br>
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> > > ><br>
> > ><br>
> > > --<br>
> > > --<br>
> > > Kind regards.<br>
> > > Lu<br>
> > ><br>
> > ><br>
> > ><br>
> ><br>
> > --<br>
> > --<br>
> > Kind regards.<br>
> > Lu<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> <br>
> --<br>
> --<br>
> Kind regards.<br>
> Lu<br>
> <br>
> <br>
></blockquote></div></div>-- <br><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div>--<br>Kind regards.<br>Lu<br><br></div></div></div>