<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><br class=""><div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Sep 2, 2021, at 05:16 , Fernando Frediani <<a href="mailto:fhfrediani@gmail.com" class="">fhfrediani@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class="">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8" class="">
<div class=""><p class="">Exactly, the right to review is a principle in place and if
triggered the resource holder must explain again if he still
justify to maintain those resources.</p><p class="">I don't see a need to report any changes afterwards the resources
were assigned by the RIR, <b class="">as long they keep being used
according to the current policies</b>. If however the RIR call
that organization for a review, they must be able to explain
themselves at anytime. This is in the interest of all.<br class="">
</p><p class="">Now, can IP leasing be a justified need one can give to the RIR
in order to have some IP space allocated ? Could ever an
organization go to the RIR and say: "Please give me more IP space
as I am going to use them to lease to other organizations that
have the ability to get them directly from the RIR" ?</p><div class=""><br class=""></div></div></div></blockquote>The following justification:</div><div><br class=""></div><div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>“We [will] use the addresses to number X internet-connected hosts on our own infrastructure and Y internet-connected hosts on our Z customers’ networks.”. </div><div><br class=""></div><div>meets the letter of the policy requirements in both thin the ARIN region and the AFRINIC region.</div><div><br class=""></div><div>Please show me language in either policy manual which would allow the RIR to reject that justification simply because the customers are not receiving connectivity services from the LIR in question. If you cannot point to specific policy language that covers this, then yes, leasing is permitted and can be a justified need.</div><div><br class=""></div><div>In fact, every LIR on the planet is engaged in address leasing. Most of them provide some connectivity service along with the lease, but there are plenty of commercial arrangements where an ISP is still allowing a customer to pay to keep their address space after terminating their connectivity services with that provider. There’s really no difference between these arrangements and leasing. In fact, eve if you include the lease inside of a connectivity contract, it’s still a lease. As such, the vast majority of addresses are actually justified on the basis of an intent to lease them. The difference is merely the nature of the commercial terms of the lease and the presence or absence of connectivity services in parallel to said lease.</div><div><br class=""></div><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div class=""><p class="">IP leasing is<span class="VIiyi" lang="en"><span class=" ChMk0b JLqJ4b
" data-language-for-alternatives="en" data-language-to-translate-into="pt" data-phrase-index="0"><span class="">
a real mockery to those who effectively build Internet
infrastructure and bring connectivity to people in general
and those who justify for receiving IP allocations. What is
the point to pretend it is Ok to accept it as a 'normal'
practice?<br class="">
If an organization is able to justify and get IP addresses
allocated directly by the RIR, accepting people's leasing
practices only force organization who really justify for
those IP addresses to have to pay more pay more to a
middleman that most possible doesn't built any internet
infrastructure if they could just be paying ARIN or any
RIR's administrative fees directly and get those resources
directly from there.<br class=""></span></span></span></p></div></div></blockquote><div>Is it? It seems to be facilitating quite of few such organizations to do exactly that with a lower up-front capital outlay for address acquisition. If it didn’t make economic sense for them to lease the addresses they need, why would they do that instead of purchasing them outright?</div><div><br class=""></div><div>Is it really the role or job of an RIR to enforce or dictate the commercial terms of an address transaction between consenting parties?</div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div class=""><p class=""><span class="VIiyi" lang="en"><span class=" ChMk0b JLqJ4b
" data-language-for-alternatives="en" data-language-to-translate-into="pt" data-phrase-index="0"><span class="">
</span></span></span></p><p class=""><span class="VIiyi" lang="en"><span class="JLqJ4b ChMk0b" data-language-for-alternatives="en" data-language-to-translate-into="pt" data-phrase-index="0"><span class="">Therefore
if some organization who received a chunk of addresses in
the past based in a justification they had to build Internet
sudden starts to lease those addresses they should go
immediately under a revocation process as they no longer
justify for them. Either they use them for the proposes
they justified or give them back to the RIR so the RIR can
allocate to others who really justify.</span></span></span></p></div></div></blockquote>I suppose there are number of questions that would have to be asked here…</div><div><br class=""></div><div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>Does operating a VPN service count as “building internet”?</div><div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>If the leasing provider stood up VPNs to all of its clients who were then multi homed to the leasing provider and other providers</div><div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>they peered with or acquired transit from and the leasing provider announced only the aggregates while the customers</div><div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>announced the more specifics everywhere else, would that make a difference to how you characterize the situation?</div><div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>If that’s true, then what actual difference is there in reality?</div><div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>Isn’t the goal of the RIRs to ensure that the addresses are being used according to technical need and efficiency?</div><div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>If so, how does leasing contradict this goal?</div><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div class=""><p class=""><span class="VIiyi" lang="en"><span class="JLqJ4b ChMk0b" data-language-for-alternatives="en" data-language-to-translate-into="pt" data-phrase-index="0"><span class="">Transfer
of resources (even if there is a transaction in the
background) is something different and fine in the current
scenario as it facilitates the resources goes to those who
really justify for them.</span></span></span></p></div></div></blockquote>Please explain how the distinction between leasing addresses in conjunction with a connectivity service vs. leasing addresses without providing connectivity to the same customer constitutes a violation of any RIR’s actual written policy. Please provide specific references to the policies in question so that your assertions can be verified.</div><div><br class=""></div><div>If you can’t do that, then most of your argument really falls apart.</div><div><br class=""></div><div>Owen</div><div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div class=""><p class=""><span class="VIiyi" lang="en"><span class="JLqJ4b ChMk0b" data-language-for-alternatives="en" data-language-to-translate-into="pt" data-phrase-index="0"><span class="">Fernando</span></span></span></p>
<br class="">
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Em 01/09/2021 17:35, Chris Woodfield
escreveu:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:E6D6F8F6-8B9A-42E6-9D80-E1BE746817A6@semihuman.com" class="">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8" class="">
<div class="">David - </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">In addition to the RSA language John cited, Section 12 of the
NRPM gives ARIN the right to review an organization’s resource
usage at any time for continued compliance with
community-driven policy. I suspect that these reviews are not
common, however. What’s more common, in my view, is an
organization’s request for additional resources, which must come
with justification that currently-held resources are being used
in compliance with policy. I do not believe that these are
checked against the original requests for consistency, however.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">I’d be curious if the clause below can be interpreted as
giving organizations a duty to report *any* substantial changes
in an organization’s allocation plans if they diverge from the
justification filed at the time of the request, or only when
such changes would have the effect of putting the organization
out of compliance with current policy. I can see the former
interpretation being rather troublesome for a large number of
organizations, given how often business plans and environments
can change over time, as well as adding quite a bit of (IMO
unnecessary) overhead to IP allocation managers.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">That said, I can see ARIN being quite justified in reclaiming
resources if the justification documentation filed with the
request had no bearing to the org’s actual plans. I suspect that
to be the unspoken subtext of the current controversy, and I
absolutely believe that ARIN would and should act similarly in
such a scenario (which, in the past, it has).</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Regards,,</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">-Chris</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On Sep 1, 2021, at 1:21 PM, John Curran <<a href="mailto:jcurran@arin.net" class="" moz-do-not-send="true">jcurran@arin.net</a>> wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class="">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
charset=UTF-8" class="">
<div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space;
line-break: after-white-space;" class="">
<div class="">David - </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"></span>Excellent
question. The most important item is for the community
to determine its policy goals in this area, and then
based on such what requirements/duties belong in policy
language in Number Resource Policy Manual (NRPM.)</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"></span>The
ARIN RSA places an explicit duty of “Information and
Cooperation” on number resource holders (see below) that
can be used to enforce community-developed policy in
this area, but the communities thoughts on the
appropriate policy really should drive the discussion – </div>
<blockquote style="margin: 0 0 0 40px; border: none;
padding: 0px;" class="">
<div class="">
<div class="page" title="Page 2">
<div class="layoutArea">
<div class="column"><p class=""><i class=""><span style="font-size:
10.000000pt; font-family: 'ArialMT'" class="">2.(c) Information and
Cooperation. Holder has completed an
application provided by ARIN for one or
more
</span><span style="font-size: 10.000000pt;
font-family: 'ArialMT'" class="">Services
(the “Application”). Holder must (i)
promptly notify ARIN if any information
provided in the Application
</span><span style="font-size: 10.000000pt;
font-family: 'ArialMT'" class="">changes
during the term of this Agreement, and
(ii) make reasonable efforts to promptly,
accurately, and completely provide any
information or cooperation required
pursuant to the Service Terms or in
response to any inquiry or request made to
Holder by ARIN during the term of this
Agreement. In addition, Holder shall
promptly provide ARIN with complete and
accurate information, and cooperation as
required by any Service Terms or
</span><span style="font-size: 10.000000pt;
font-family: 'ArialMT'" class="">that ARIN
requests in connection with ARIN’s
provision of any of the Services to
Holder. If Holder does not
</span><span style="font-size: 10.000000pt;
font-family: 'ArialMT'" class="">provide
ARIN with such information or cooperation
that ARIN requests, ARIN may take such
failure into account in evaluating
</span><span style="font-size: 10.000000pt;
font-family: 'ArialMT'" class="">Holder’s
subsequent requests for transfer,
allocation or assignment of additional
number
</span><span style="font-size: 10.000000pt;
font-family: 'ArialMT'" class="">resources,
or requests for changes to any Services. </span></i></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"></span>Note
that material breach of Section 2(c) is one of the events
that provides ARIN clear right of termination for the RSA
and subsequent revocation of the number resources – so
let’s be extra careful when considering any
reporting/information duties for placement into NRPM.
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Thanks! </div>
<div class="">/John<br class="">
<div class="">
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">
<div class="">John Curran</div>
<div class="">President and CEO</div>
<div class="">American Registry for Internet Numbers</div>
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
On 1 Sep 2021, at 3:47 PM, David Farmer <<a href="mailto:farmer@umn.edu" class="" moz-do-not-send="true">farmer@umn.edu</a>> wrote:<br class="">
<div class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class=""><br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
<div class="">I changed the subject line, as
this isn't directly related to the dispute
between AFRINIC and CI, but more some
questions arising from it specifically
related to the ARIN registered resources.</div>
<div class="">----</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">So, do ARIN resource
holders have a duty to report changes in
their use of resources? If they do, where
does that duty come from in policy or
contract language? And, what are the
relevant changes that need to be reported?</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">In my review of these questions;</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">In the RSA I see where holders
are granted, "The right to use the Included
Number Resources within the ARIN database"
(RSA section 2.b bullet 2). However, I don't
see any limitation to that use, such as
"originally justified" or any obligation to
report a change in such use.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">In policy, "An end-user is an
organization receiving assignments of IP
addresses exclusively for use in its
operational networks." (NRPM 2.6), with an
exception for incidental or transient use
(last paragraph, section 2.5).</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Maybe to align end-user
requirements with the new Registration
Services Agreement we should change that so
end-users have to report any use, other than
incidental or transient use, outside their
organization.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">And ISP's have requirements to
report the use by their customers that
exceed certain levels (NRPM sections 4.2.3.7
and 6.5.5).</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">So, other than the ISP reporting
requirements, I don't see direct reporting
obligations for change in use. Further, I
don't see any guidance to what might be a
material change in use that is in need of
reporting, as I'm sure we don't want ARIN
Staff tied up with reports of all possible
changes, most of which are probably
irrelevant. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Are there reporting requirements
I'm missing? Maybe implied or indirect
requirement?</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Should something be added to
ARIN's policies explicitly stating
requirements for reporting a change in the
use of resources?</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Thanks</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br class="">
</div>
</div>
</div>
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