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<p>Hello Owen</p>
<p>*Any* revocation must always be governed by this forum which is
the only body who has power to define allocation policies and
therefore revocation. RIRs don't have power for that, except on
exceptional situations (section 10.1) which have to be confirmed
by this forum.<br>
The RIR, based on RSA may stop providing services to organizations
that are not up to their payments, but a policy that states loud
and clear that organizations that fail to pay their fees are also
subject to revocation, reason why I see no harm to leave the text
as it is.</p>
<p>Yes, the Board is free to modify the RSA at will, but they need
to make it coherent to the whatever the policies say, where it
applies of course (ex: Policy say that undue payments leads to
resources revocation. RSA may outline the details how the services
will stop being provided until the resources are revoked in line
with this forum has the sole prerogative to define.)</p>
<p>Just as a comparison and knowing that each RIR PDP may have its
differences, the essence of ICP-2 is the same, the LACNIC policy
manual clearly states in section 7 that lack payment (among other
reasons) is a reason for revocation. Beyond that which is
specifically stated in the manual it also says that "violations on
contractual obligations with LACNIC" may be a reason for
revocation. In resume, that is defined by the Policy Forum for the
RIR to execute.</p>
<p>Fernando<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 16/01/2021 04:24, Owen DeLong wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:0AD6D6B9-DE0C-4398-ACB5-AEFBD1D4F9E9@delong.com">
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<br class="">
<div><br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On Jan 15, 2021, at 5:14 PM, Fernando Frediani
<<a href="mailto:fhfrediani@gmail.com" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">fhfrediani@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class="">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
charset=UTF-8" class="">
<div class="">
<p class="">Yes to focus solely on allocation policies
that means make it clear when a revocation may happen
which is governed by this forum.<br class="">
</p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br class="">
</div>
Fernando,</div>
<div><br class="">
</div>
<div>Only my personal opinion on the subject and subject to
correction from ARIN staff:</div>
<div><br class="">
</div>
<div>Revocation for non-payment is _NOT_ governed by this forum. A
policy which proposed to block revocation due to non-payment or
likely even one which sought to control the manner and timing of
such revocation would very likely be considered out of scope for
the PDP.</div>
<div>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">
<p class=""> Agree that RSA can have all the possible
details, but I see no harm in keeping the text exactly
as it is. Could anyone explain what sort of trouble
keeping the text there may bring any issues to ARIN on
the allocation/revocation process in place ?</p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
Christian has already explained this to you. I will expand… Text
in the NRPM may or may not be aligned with the RSA. The text in
the RSA is controlling, but if it becomes out of sync with text
in the policy document (NRPM), it creates unnecessary confusion.
The board is free to modify the RSA at will. The NRPM is not
(generally) under their direct control and there is a precise
and well defined process for updating it which, while supervised
by the board, is generally managed by the AC and the community.</div>
<div><br class="">
</div>
<div>Multiple sources of truth are never a good idea… Not in
systems administration, not in network management, and certainly
not in policy.</div>
<div><br class="">
</div>
<div>Owen</div>
<div><br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">
<p class="">Fernando<br class="">
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 15/01/2021 21:07, Chris
Woodfield wrote:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:3490E22B-1CF6-4D12-AECD-FE0D5DC60E0C@semihuman.com"
class="">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
charset=UTF-8" class="">
The language, as is, is problematic because there’s a
clear delineation between the NRPM and ARIN’s RSA/LRSAs.
The former is intended to focus solely on allocation
policies, and is a living document subject to change via
the PDP. The RSA/LRSA agreements, however, are contracts
whose language can only be modified by action from
ARIN’s Board of Trustees. Contractual language on member
fees, terms and conditions, and related topics are
solely the domain of the RSA, and as such the inclusion
of language regarding fees in the NRPM should be
stricken - this language is already present in the RSA,
where it belongs.<br class="">
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">The primary reason for this delineation,
as I understand it is that language in the RSA is
necessary contractual language that ARIN must have in
order to provide the necessary income to fulfill
ARIN’s mission and responsibilities, and to protect
ARIN from unnecessary legal liabilities that may
threaten that mission. While number policy is subject
to a community-driven policy development process, the
language in ARIN's RSAs, for what I hope are obvious
reasons, must be controlled far more tightly, hence
the separation between the two.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">I hope this helps clarify things.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">-Chris</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On Jan 15, 2021, at 3:36 PM, Fernando
Frediani <<a href="mailto:fhfrediani@gmail.com"
class="" moz-do-not-send="true">fhfrediani@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class="">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type"
content="text/html; charset=UTF-8" class="">
<div class="">
<p class="">Applies to all resources of course.
If not in the appropriate place then add it
there then. But not remove something that is
very obvious.</p>
<p class="">How can it deal with the issues
better by removing from the text that part
that makes it clear that resources may be
revoked if they are not payed ?</p>
<p class="">Fernando<br class="">
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 15/01/2021
20:33, David Farmer wrote:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAN-Dau0zq=LKxvH4qq6AveXHayU7UXf0_HvAoqo12PJ7_Ckozg@mail.gmail.com"
class="">
<meta http-equiv="content-type"
content="text/html; charset=UTF-8" class="">
<div dir="auto" class="">Are you saying fees
only apply to ISPs with IPv4, the current
text is in section 4.2.1.4, where section
4.2 applies to Allocations to ISPs...</div>
<div dir="auto" class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div dir="auto" class="">Furthermore, not
paying fees is only one reason resources may
be revoked or reclaimed.</div>
<div dir="auto" class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div dir="auto" class="">I think the new text
is a better way to deal with the issues.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri,
Jan 15, 2021 at 17:09 Fernando Frediani
<<a
href="mailto:fhfrediani@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="">fhfrediani@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204)">
<div class="">
<p class="">Yes fees are most a RSA
thing, but I see no harm to keep the
actual wording as it is and make it
loud and clear that organizations
that don't pay the fees are
subjected to resources revocation -
which is up to this forum to define
- so no one <span class=""
lang="en"><span class=""><span
class="">may plead ignorance
about it. <br class="">
What is the problem to keep it
as it is ? If the newly
proposed text mentions that
ISPs should take care to
ensure that their annual
renewal payment is made by
their anniversary due date,
what's wrong to also remind
them that if that is not
fulfilled the resources may be
revoked ?<br class="">
This makes part of the Fair
and Impartial Number Resources
Administration principle.</span></span></span></p>
<p class=""><span class="" lang="en"><span
class=""><span class="">I see no
propose in this proposal
therefore I do not support it.</span></span></span></p>
<p class=""><span class="" lang="en"><span
class=""><span class="">Regards<br
class="">
Fernando<br class="">
</span></span></span></p>
<div class="">On 15/01/2021 17:55,
ARIN wrote:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11pt"
class="">The following Draft
Policy has been revised:</span></p>
<div class=""><span
style="font-size:11pt"
class=""> </span><br
class="webkit-block-placeholder">
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11pt"
class="">* ARIN-2020-8:
Clarify and Update 4.2.1.2
Annual Renewal Fee</span></p>
<div class=""><span
style="font-size:11pt"
class=""> </span><br
class="webkit-block-placeholder">
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11pt"
class="">Revised text is below
and can be found at:</span></p>
<div class=""><span
style="font-size:11pt"
class=""> </span><br
class="webkit-block-placeholder">
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11pt"
class=""><a
href="https://www.arin.net/participate/policy/drafts/2020_8/"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="">https://www.arin.net/participate/policy/drafts/2020_8/</a></span></p>
<div class=""><span
style="font-size:11pt"
class=""> </span><br
class="webkit-block-placeholder">
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11pt"
class="">You are encouraged to
discuss all Draft Policies on
PPML. The AC will evaluate the
discussion in order to assess
the conformance of this Draft
Policy with ARIN's Principles
of Internet number resource
policy as stated in the Policy
Development Process (PDP).
Specifically, these principles
are:</span></p>
<div class=""><span
style="font-size:11pt"
class=""> </span><br
class="webkit-block-placeholder">
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11pt"
class="">* Enabling Fair and
Impartial Number Resource
Administration</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11pt"
class="">* Technically Sound</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11pt"
class="">* Supported by the
Community</span></p>
<div class=""><span
style="font-size:11pt"
class=""> </span><br
class="webkit-block-placeholder">
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11pt"
class="">The PDP can be found
at:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11pt"
class=""><a
href="https://www.arin.net/participate/policy/pdp/"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="">https://www.arin.net/participate/policy/pdp/</a></span></p>
<div class=""><span
style="font-size:11pt"
class=""> </span><br
class="webkit-block-placeholder">
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11pt"
class="">Draft Policies and
Proposals under discussion can
be found at:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11pt"
class=""><a
href="https://www.arin.net/participate/policy/drafts/"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="">https://www.arin.net/participate/policy/drafts/</a></span></p>
<div class=""><span
style="font-size:11pt"
class=""> </span><br
class="webkit-block-placeholder">
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11pt"
class="">Regards,</span></p>
<div class=""><span
style="font-size:11pt"
class=""> </span><br
class="webkit-block-placeholder">
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11pt"
class="">Sean Hopkins</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11pt"
class="">Policy Analyst</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11pt"
class="">American Registry for
Internet Numbers (ARIN)</span></p>
<div class=""><span
style="font-size:11pt"
class=""> </span><br
class="webkit-block-placeholder">
</div>
<div class=""><span
style="font-size:11pt"
class=""> </span><br
class="webkit-block-placeholder">
</div>
<div class=""><span
style="font-size:11pt"
class=""> </span><br
class="webkit-block-placeholder">
</div>
<div class=""><span
style="font-size:11pt"
class=""> </span><br
class="webkit-block-placeholder">
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11pt"
class="">Draft Policy
ARIN-2020-8: Clarify and
Update 4.2.1.2 Annual Renewal
Fee</span></p>
<div class=""><span
style="font-size:11pt"
class=""> </span><br
class="webkit-block-placeholder">
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11pt"
class="">Problem Statement:</span></p>
<div class=""><span
style="font-size:11pt"
class=""> </span><br
class="webkit-block-placeholder">
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11pt"
class="">The January 2020
Policy Experience Report
highlighted that the existing
language in Section 4.2.1.2
"Annual Renewal" references
fees. Fees are not considered
a member qualification
criteria. Since fees aren't
referenced elsewhere in
community policy, the wording
was reviewed by the PEG.</span></p>
<div class=""><span
style="font-size:11pt"
class=""> </span><br
class="webkit-block-placeholder">
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11pt"
class="">Policy statement:</span></p>
<div class=""><span
style="font-size:11pt"
class=""> </span><br
class="webkit-block-placeholder">
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11pt"
class="">Given that the
Registration Services
Agreement (RSA) already
contains language regarding
fees, the AC Shepherds
recommend to eliminate
4.2.1.2. entirely and add:</span></p>
<div class=""><span
style="font-size:11pt"
class=""> </span><br
class="webkit-block-placeholder">
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11pt"
class="">2.X Registration
Services Agreement (RSA)</span></p>
<div class=""><span
style="font-size:11pt"
class=""> </span><br
class="webkit-block-placeholder">
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11pt"
class="">Number resources
allocated or assigned by ARIN
under these policies are
subject to a contractural
agreement between ARIN and the
resource holder. Throughout
this document, any and all
forms of this agreement, past
or future, are simply referred
to as the Registration
Services Agreement (RSA).</span></p>
<div class=""><span
style="font-size:11pt"
class=""> </span><br
class="webkit-block-placeholder">
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11pt"
class="">Comments: </span></p>
<div class=""><span
style="font-size:11pt"
class=""> </span><br
class="webkit-block-placeholder">
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11pt"
class="">The AC’s
understanding is that
community policy should not
include language referring to
fees, as such language is
already present in the
Registration Services
Agreement (RSA)</span></p>
<div class=""><span
style="font-size:11pt"
class=""> </span><br
class="webkit-block-placeholder">
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11pt"
class="">Registration Services
has informed us that "Section
4.2.1.2. contains language
detailing fee due dates,
encouraging on-time payments,
and mentions potential
revocations. It also contains
a reference to web
documentation that has evolved
significantly since this
policy was implemented, and
may continue to do so.
Essentially the entire section
is made of language that is
already in the Registration
Services Agreement, and is
generally fee-focused, making
it outside normal scope for
Internet number resource
policy."</span></p>
<div class=""><span
style="font-size:11pt"
class=""> </span><br
class="webkit-block-placeholder">
</div>
<div class=""><span
style="font-size:11pt"
class=""> </span><br
class="webkit-block-placeholder">
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11pt"
class="">Timetable for
implementation: Immediate</span></p>
<div class=""><span
style="font-size:11pt"
class=""> </span><br
class="webkit-block-placeholder">
</div>
<div class=""><span
style="font-size:11pt"
class=""> </span><br
class="webkit-block-placeholder">
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11pt"
class="">Anything else: </span></p>
<div class=""><span
style="font-size:11pt"
class=""> </span><br
class="webkit-block-placeholder">
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11pt"
class="">Community input since
adopting draft has informed
this direction. The 2.X
placeholder is used as this
seems like it might be
foundational enough to not be
2.17 but the Shepherds would
rather not upset current
indexing arbitrarily.</span></p>
</div>
<br class="">
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