<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><br class=""><div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Jan 15, 2021, at 5:14 PM, Fernando Frediani <<a href="mailto:fhfrediani@gmail.com" class="">fhfrediani@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class="">
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<div class=""><p class="">Yes to focus solely on allocation policies that means make it
clear when a revocation may happen which is governed by this
forum.<br class=""></p></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div>Fernando,</div><div><br class=""></div><div>Only my personal opinion on the subject and subject to correction from ARIN staff:</div><div><br class=""></div><div>Revocation for non-payment is _NOT_ governed by this forum. A policy which proposed to block revocation due to non-payment or likely even one which sought to control the manner and timing of such revocation would very likely be considered out of scope for the PDP.</div><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div class=""><p class="">
Agree that RSA can have all the possible details, but I see no
harm in keeping the text exactly as it is. Could anyone explain
what sort of trouble keeping the text there may bring any issues
to ARIN on the allocation/revocation process in place ?</p></div></div></blockquote>Christian has already explained this to you. I will expand… Text in the NRPM may or may not be aligned with the RSA. The text in the RSA is controlling, but if it becomes out of sync with text in the policy document (NRPM), it creates unnecessary confusion. The board is free to modify the RSA at will. The NRPM is not (generally) under their direct control and there is a precise and well defined process for updating it which, while supervised by the board, is generally managed by the AC and the community.</div><div><br class=""></div><div>Multiple sources of truth are never a good idea… Not in systems administration, not in network management, and certainly not in policy.</div><div><br class=""></div><div>Owen</div><div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div class=""><p class="">Fernando<br class="">
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 15/01/2021 21:07, Chris Woodfield
wrote:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:3490E22B-1CF6-4D12-AECD-FE0D5DC60E0C@semihuman.com" class="">
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The language, as is, is problematic because there’s a clear
delineation between the NRPM and ARIN’s RSA/LRSAs. The former is
intended to focus solely on allocation policies, and is a living
document subject to change via the PDP. The RSA/LRSA agreements,
however, are contracts whose language can only be modified by
action from ARIN’s Board of Trustees. Contractual language on
member fees, terms and conditions, and related topics are solely
the domain of the RSA, and as such the inclusion of language
regarding fees in the NRPM should be stricken - this language is
already present in the RSA, where it belongs.<br class="">
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">The primary reason for this delineation, as I understand it
is that language in the RSA is necessary contractual language
that ARIN must have in order to provide the necessary income to
fulfill ARIN’s mission and responsibilities, and to protect ARIN
from unnecessary legal liabilities that may threaten that
mission. While number policy is subject to a community-driven
policy development process, the language in ARIN's RSAs, for
what I hope are obvious reasons, must be controlled far more
tightly, hence the separation between the two.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">I hope this helps clarify things.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">-Chris</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On Jan 15, 2021, at 3:36 PM, Fernando Frediani
<<a href="mailto:fhfrediani@gmail.com" class="" moz-do-not-send="true">fhfrediani@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class="">
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charset=UTF-8" class="">
<div class=""><p class="">Applies to all resources of course. If not in
the appropriate place then add it there then. But not
remove something that is very obvious.</p><p class="">How can it deal with the issues better by
removing from the text that part that makes it clear
that resources may be revoked if they are not payed ?</p><p class="">Fernando<br class="">
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 15/01/2021 20:33, David
Farmer wrote:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:CAN-Dau0zq=LKxvH4qq6AveXHayU7UXf0_HvAoqo12PJ7_Ckozg@mail.gmail.com" class="">
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charset=UTF-8" class="">
<div dir="auto" class="">Are you saying fees only apply
to ISPs with IPv4, the current text is in section
4.2.1.4, where section 4.2 applies to Allocations to
ISPs...</div>
<div dir="auto" class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div dir="auto" class="">Furthermore, not paying fees is
only one reason resources may be revoked or reclaimed.</div>
<div dir="auto" class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div dir="auto" class="">I think the new text is a
better way to deal with the issues.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri, Jan 15,
2021 at 17:09 Fernando Frediani <<a href="mailto:fhfrediani@gmail.com" moz-do-not-send="true" class="">fhfrediani@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px
0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204)">
<div class=""><p class="">Yes fees are most a RSA thing, but I
see no harm to keep the actual wording as it
is and make it loud and clear that
organizations that don't pay the fees are
subjected to resources revocation - which is
up to this forum to define - so no one <span class="" lang="en"><span class=""><span class="">may plead ignorance about it. <br class="">
What is the problem to keep it as it is
? If the newly proposed text mentions
that ISPs should take care to ensure
that their annual renewal payment is
made by their anniversary due date,
what's wrong to also remind them that if
that is not fulfilled the resources may
be revoked ?<br class="">
This makes part of the Fair and
Impartial Number Resources
Administration principle.</span></span></span></p><p class=""><span class="" lang="en"><span class=""><span class="">I see no propose
in this proposal therefore I do not
support it.</span></span></span></p><p class=""><span class="" lang="en"><span class=""><span class="">Regards<br class="">
Fernando<br class="">
</span></span></span></p>
<div class="">On 15/01/2021 17:55, ARIN wrote:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt" class="">The
following Draft Policy has been revised:</span></p>
<div class=""><span style="font-size:11pt" class=""> </span><br class="webkit-block-placeholder">
</div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt" class="">*
ARIN-2020-8: Clarify and Update 4.2.1.2
Annual Renewal Fee</span></p>
<div class=""><span style="font-size:11pt" class=""> </span><br class="webkit-block-placeholder">
</div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt" class="">Revised
text is below and can be found at:</span></p>
<div class=""><span style="font-size:11pt" class=""> </span><br class="webkit-block-placeholder">
</div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt" class=""><a href="https://www.arin.net/participate/policy/drafts/2020_8/" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true" class="">https://www.arin.net/participate/policy/drafts/2020_8/</a></span></p>
<div class=""><span style="font-size:11pt" class=""> </span><br class="webkit-block-placeholder">
</div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt" class="">You are
encouraged to discuss all Draft Policies
on PPML. The AC will evaluate the
discussion in order to assess the
conformance of this Draft Policy with
ARIN's Principles of Internet number
resource policy as stated in the Policy
Development Process (PDP). Specifically,
these principles are:</span></p>
<div class=""><span style="font-size:11pt" class=""> </span><br class="webkit-block-placeholder">
</div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt" class="">*
Enabling Fair and Impartial Number
Resource Administration</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt" class="">*
Technically Sound</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt" class="">*
Supported by the Community</span></p>
<div class=""><span style="font-size:11pt" class=""> </span><br class="webkit-block-placeholder">
</div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt" class="">The PDP
can be found at:</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt" class=""><a href="https://www.arin.net/participate/policy/pdp/" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true" class="">https://www.arin.net/participate/policy/pdp/</a></span></p>
<div class=""><span style="font-size:11pt" class=""> </span><br class="webkit-block-placeholder">
</div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt" class="">Draft
Policies and Proposals under discussion
can be found at:</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt" class=""><a href="https://www.arin.net/participate/policy/drafts/" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true" class="">https://www.arin.net/participate/policy/drafts/</a></span></p>
<div class=""><span style="font-size:11pt" class=""> </span><br class="webkit-block-placeholder">
</div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt" class="">Regards,</span></p>
<div class=""><span style="font-size:11pt" class=""> </span><br class="webkit-block-placeholder">
</div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt" class="">Sean
Hopkins</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt" class="">Policy
Analyst</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt" class="">American
Registry for Internet Numbers (ARIN)</span></p>
<div class=""><span style="font-size:11pt" class=""> </span><br class="webkit-block-placeholder">
</div>
<div class=""><span style="font-size:11pt" class=""> </span><br class="webkit-block-placeholder">
</div>
<div class=""><span style="font-size:11pt" class=""> </span><br class="webkit-block-placeholder">
</div>
<div class=""><span style="font-size:11pt" class=""> </span><br class="webkit-block-placeholder">
</div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt" class="">Draft
Policy ARIN-2020-8: Clarify and Update
4.2.1.2 Annual Renewal Fee</span></p>
<div class=""><span style="font-size:11pt" class=""> </span><br class="webkit-block-placeholder">
</div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt" class="">Problem
Statement:</span></p>
<div class=""><span style="font-size:11pt" class=""> </span><br class="webkit-block-placeholder">
</div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt" class="">The
January 2020 Policy Experience Report
highlighted that the existing language
in Section 4.2.1.2 "Annual Renewal"
references fees. Fees are not considered
a member qualification criteria. Since
fees aren't referenced elsewhere in
community policy, the wording was
reviewed by the PEG.</span></p>
<div class=""><span style="font-size:11pt" class=""> </span><br class="webkit-block-placeholder">
</div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt" class="">Policy
statement:</span></p>
<div class=""><span style="font-size:11pt" class=""> </span><br class="webkit-block-placeholder">
</div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt" class="">Given
that the Registration Services Agreement
(RSA) already contains language
regarding fees, the AC Shepherds
recommend to eliminate 4.2.1.2. entirely
and add:</span></p>
<div class=""><span style="font-size:11pt" class=""> </span><br class="webkit-block-placeholder">
</div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt" class="">2.X
Registration Services Agreement (RSA)</span></p>
<div class=""><span style="font-size:11pt" class=""> </span><br class="webkit-block-placeholder">
</div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt" class="">Number
resources allocated or assigned by ARIN
under these policies are subject to a
contractural agreement between ARIN and
the resource holder. Throughout this
document, any and all forms of this
agreement, past or future, are simply
referred to as the Registration Services
Agreement (RSA).</span></p>
<div class=""><span style="font-size:11pt" class=""> </span><br class="webkit-block-placeholder">
</div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt" class="">Comments:
</span></p>
<div class=""><span style="font-size:11pt" class=""> </span><br class="webkit-block-placeholder">
</div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt" class="">The AC’s
understanding is that community policy
should not include language referring to
fees, as such language is already
present in the Registration Services
Agreement (RSA)</span></p>
<div class=""><span style="font-size:11pt" class=""> </span><br class="webkit-block-placeholder">
</div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt" class="">Registration
Services has informed us that "Section
4.2.1.2. contains language detailing fee
due dates, encouraging on-time payments,
and mentions potential revocations. It
also contains a reference to web
documentation that has evolved
significantly since this policy was
implemented, and may continue to do so.
Essentially the entire section is made
of language that is already in the
Registration Services Agreement, and is
generally fee-focused, making it outside
normal scope for Internet number
resource policy."</span></p>
<div class=""><span style="font-size:11pt" class=""> </span><br class="webkit-block-placeholder">
</div>
<div class=""><span style="font-size:11pt" class=""> </span><br class="webkit-block-placeholder">
</div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt" class="">Timetable
for implementation: Immediate</span></p>
<div class=""><span style="font-size:11pt" class=""> </span><br class="webkit-block-placeholder">
</div>
<div class=""><span style="font-size:11pt" class=""> </span><br class="webkit-block-placeholder">
</div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt" class="">Anything
else: </span></p>
<div class=""><span style="font-size:11pt" class=""> </span><br class="webkit-block-placeholder">
</div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt" class="">Community
input since adopting draft has informed
this direction. The 2.X placeholder is
used as this seems like it might be
foundational enough to not be 2.17 but
the Shepherds would rather not upset
current indexing arbitrarily.</span></p>
</div>
<br class="">
<fieldset class=""></fieldset>
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