<div dir="auto"><div><span style="font-family:sans-serif;font-size:12.8px">Re: "I threw a /24 back in The Swamp 20+ years ago, because it was right."</span></div><div dir="auto"><font face="sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12.8px"><br></span></font></div><div dir="auto">Maybe a long-term carpark would have been more useful in hindsight. </div><div dir="auto"> I do not support this draft policy.</div><div dir="auto">RD</div><div dir="auto"><br><div class="gmail_quote" dir="auto"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, Oct 1, 2019, 16:15 <<a href="mailto:arin-ppml-request@arin.net">arin-ppml-request@arin.net</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Send ARIN-PPML mailing list submissions to<br>
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Today's Topics:<br>
<br>
1. Re: Draft Policy ARIN-2019-18: LIR/ISP Re-Assignment to<br>
Non-Connected Networks (Ralph Sims)<br>
2. Re: Draft Policy ARIN-2019-18: LIR/ISP Re-Assignment to<br>
Non-Connected Networks (David Farmer)<br>
3. Re: Draft Policy ARIN-2019-18: LIR/ISP Re-Assignment to<br>
Non-Connected Networks (Mike Burns)<br>
<br>
<br>
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<br>
Message: 1<br>
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2019 19:09:04 +0000<br>
From: Ralph Sims <<a href="mailto:ralphs@accelnet.net" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">ralphs@accelnet.net</a>><br>
To: Fernando Frediani <<a href="mailto:fhfrediani@gmail.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">fhfrediani@gmail.com</a>>, "<a href="mailto:arin-ppml@arin.net" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">arin-ppml@arin.net</a>"<br>
<<a href="mailto:arin-ppml@arin.net" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">arin-ppml@arin.net</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] Draft Policy ARIN-2019-18: LIR/ISP<br>
Re-Assignment to Non-Connected Networks<br>
Message-ID:<br>
<<a href="mailto:MWHPR0401MB3691429FCD4C09706A7DAEF8A89D0@MWHPR0401MB3691.namprd04.prod.outlook.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">MWHPR0401MB3691429FCD4C09706A7DAEF8A89D0@MWHPR0401MB3691.namprd04.prod.outlook.com</a>><br>
<br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<br>
<br>
Due to our not knowing that ARIN recently changed its policy on allocating additional address space, we are unable to get a subnet to handle our growth (missed the cut off by 10 days). We recently acquired a company that gets its space from another provider, but we need additional space to service its customers as well as for our own growth. We have tried to be good ?citizens? in the past by not requesting more than we could justify at the time, but now it appears we have shot ourselves in the foot. I threw a /24 back in The Swamp 20+ years ago, because it was right. I don?t feel badly about that, however. Now we are faced with considering using a broker to acquire the additional space as ARIN cannot meet our needs. IPv6 is good, but we are dealing with organizations that a) don?t have the expertise to manage it, or b) aren?t in the position to acquire new hardware and c) other considerations. I?m not speaking of small outfits, but large organizations entrenched in the<br>
v4 world?"years of tradition unhampered by progress?. I don?t have a lot of hair to lose and going the ?educate the customer? route is getting old. ?We can?t do v6 so we?ll look elsewhere for a provider that can give us the v4 space we need.?<br>
<br>
I think the current discussion is circular and may not lead towards a consensus.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<snip><br>
**unused space** - that's the term to look at.<br>
While there are plenty of organizations in the waiting list patiently waiting to get addresses they are able to justify there are others with unused space just willing to speculate them and rent totally bypassing the waiting list.<br>
Perhaps the community at some point may reach consensus on a specific policy to revoke these unused space from these organizations and put them back into the waiting list. It would certainly cost much less than having to pay for leases. No courts in the world where a contract is respected would object to such a policy.<br>
<br>
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Message: 2<br>
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2019 14:33:17 -0500<br>
From: David Farmer <<a href="mailto:farmer@umn.edu" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">farmer@umn.edu</a>><br>
To: Fernando Frediani <<a href="mailto:fhfrediani@gmail.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">fhfrediani@gmail.com</a>><br>
Cc: ARIN-PPML List <<a href="mailto:arin-ppml@arin.net" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">arin-ppml@arin.net</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] Draft Policy ARIN-2019-18: LIR/ISP<br>
Re-Assignment to Non-Connected Networks<br>
Message-ID:<br>
<<a href="mailto:CAN-Dau3t1x33na0OVq%2BVX9xwsmXTJvWRTBQeix-bnxLKUWTc5A@mail.gmail.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">CAN-Dau3t1x33na0OVq+VX9xwsmXTJvWRTBQeix-bnxLKUWTc5A@mail.gmail.com</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<br>
<br>
On Tue, Oct 1, 2019 at 1:47 PM Fernando Frediani <<a href="mailto:fhfrediani@gmail.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">fhfrediani@gmail.com</a>><br>
wrote:<br>
<br>
> **unused space** - that's the term to look at.<br>
> While there are plenty of organizations in the waiting list patiently<br>
> waiting to get addresses they are able to justify there are others with<br>
> unused space just willing to speculate them and rent totally bypassing the<br>
> waiting list.<br>
> Perhaps the community at some point may reach consensus on a specific<br>
> policy to revoke these unused space from these organizations and put them<br>
> back into the waiting list. It would certainly cost much less than having<br>
> to pay for leases. No courts in the world where a contract is respected<br>
> would object to such a policy.<br>
><br>
<br>
Address reclamation is non-starter it is never going to happen, get over<br>
it. We went with a market so we didn't have to have the fight of<br>
reclamation, you may not like the market, but it is a far better choice<br>
than reclamation.<br>
<br>
A market motivates and maybe even rewards people to increase the use of<br>
unused or under-used address space. Reclamation motivates people to fight<br>
the increased use of address space by fighting the reclamation. Hostile or<br>
forced reclamation of address space will cost far more than a market ever<br>
will. And would likely be much more unfair than the market.<br>
<br>
Why is reclamation unfair, because those with the financial resources to<br>
fight it, will fight it, and those without financial resources won't. It's<br>
unfair because it won't be about use of address space it will be about who<br>
has the financial resources to fight reclamation.<br>
<br>
Furthermore, the huge effort reclamation would take gets us no closer to<br>
IPv6, in fact if anything it moves us away from IPv6. At least with the<br>
market as the cost of IPv4 goes up the motivation to do IPv6 does also.<br>
<br>
Please stop arguing for reclamation, it is not a viable alternative.<br>
<br>
Thanks.<br>
-- <br>
===============================================<br>
David Farmer <a href="mailto:Email%3Afarmer@umn.edu" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">Email:farmer@umn.edu</a><br>
Networking & Telecommunication Services<br>
Office of Information Technology<br>
University of Minnesota<br>
2218 University Ave SE Phone: 612-626-0815<br>
Minneapolis, MN 55414-3029 Cell: 612-812-9952<br>
===============================================<br>
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Message: 3<br>
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2019 16:14:45 -0400<br>
From: "Mike Burns" <<a href="mailto:mike@iptrading.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">mike@iptrading.com</a>><br>
To: "'Ralph Sims'" <<a href="mailto:ralphs@accelnet.net" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">ralphs@accelnet.net</a>>, "'Fernando Frediani'"<br>
<<a href="mailto:fhfrediani@gmail.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">fhfrediani@gmail.com</a>>, <<a href="mailto:arin-ppml@arin.net" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">arin-ppml@arin.net</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] Draft Policy ARIN-2019-18: LIR/ISP<br>
Re-Assignment to Non-Connected Networks<br>
Message-ID: <02cd01d57894$de179cc0$9a46d640$@<a href="http://iptrading.com" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">iptrading.com</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<br>
<br>
Hi Ralph,<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
I threw a /21 back in the swamp myself and I think you are right about this discussion being circular. ?<br>
<br>
Yes, I voluntarily returned them. Wonder if that makes my arguments any better?<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
<br>
Mike<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
From: ARIN-PPML <<a href="mailto:arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net</a>> On Behalf Of Ralph Sims<br>
Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2019 3:09 PM<br>
To: Fernando Frediani <<a href="mailto:fhfrediani@gmail.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">fhfrediani@gmail.com</a>>; <a href="mailto:arin-ppml@arin.net" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">arin-ppml@arin.net</a><br>
Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] Draft Policy ARIN-2019-18: LIR/ISP Re-Assignment to Non-Connected Networks<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Due to our not knowing that ARIN recently changed its policy on allocating additional address space, we are unable to get a subnet to handle our growth (missed the cut off by 10 days). We recently acquired a company that gets its space from another provider, but we need additional space to service its customers as well as for our own growth. We have tried to be good ?citizens? in the past by not requesting more than we could justify at the time, but now it appears we have shot ourselves in the foot. I threw a /24 back in The Swamp 20+ years ago, because it was right. I don?t feel badly about that, however. Now we are faced with considering using a broker to acquire the additional space as ARIN cannot meet our needs. IPv6 is good, but we are dealing with organizations that a) don?t have the expertise to manage it, or b) aren?t in the position to acquire new hardware and c) other considerations. I?m not speaking of small outfits, but large organizations entrenched in the<br>
v4 world?"years of tradition unhampered by progress?. I don?t have a lot of hair to lose and going the ?educate the customer? route is getting old. ?We can?t do v6 so we?ll look elsewhere for a provider that can give us the v4 space we need.?<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
I think the current discussion is circular and may not lead towards a consensus. <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<snip><br>
<br>
**unused space** - that's the term to look at.<br>
While there are plenty of organizations in the waiting list patiently waiting to get addresses they are able to justify there are others with unused space just willing to speculate them and rent totally bypassing the waiting list.<br>
Perhaps the community at some point may reach consensus on a specific policy to revoke these unused space from these organizations and put them back into the waiting list. It would certainly cost much less than having to pay for leases. No courts in the world where a contract is respected would object to such a policy.<br>
<br>
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</blockquote></div></div></div>