<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
</head>
<body text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
Hello<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 16/08/2019 12:41, Mike Burns wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:01ca01d55449$023485c0$069d9140$@iptrading.com">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<meta name="Generator" content="Microsoft Word 15 (filtered
medium)">
<style><!--
/* Font Definitions */
@font-face
{font-family:Helvetica;
panose-1:2 11 6 4 2 2 2 2 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:"Cambria Math";
panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Calibri;
panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Verdana;
panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Consolas;
panose-1:2 11 6 9 2 2 4 3 2 4;}
/* Style Definitions */
p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
{margin:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;
color:black;}
a:link, span.MsoHyperlink
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:blue;
text-decoration:underline;}
a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:purple;
text-decoration:underline;}
pre
{mso-style-priority:99;
mso-style-link:"HTML Preformatted Char";
margin:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Courier New";
color:black;}
p.msonormal0, li.msonormal0, div.msonormal0
{mso-style-name:msonormal;
mso-margin-top-alt:auto;
margin-right:0in;
mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:0in;
font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;
color:black;}
span.HTMLPreformattedChar
{mso-style-name:"HTML Preformatted Char";
mso-style-priority:99;
mso-style-link:"HTML Preformatted";
font-family:Consolas;
color:black;}
span.apple-converted-space
{mso-style-name:apple-converted-space;}
span.EmailStyle22
{mso-style-type:personal;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;
color:windowtext;
font-weight:normal;
font-style:normal;}
span.EmailStyle23
{mso-style-type:personal;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;
color:windowtext;
font-weight:normal;
font-style:normal;}
span.EmailStyle24
{mso-style-type:personal-reply;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;
color:windowtext;
font-weight:normal;
font-style:normal;}
.MsoChpDefault
{mso-style-type:export-only;
font-size:10.0pt;}
@page WordSection1
{size:8.5in 11.0in;
margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;}
div.WordSection1
{page:WordSection1;}
--></style><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapedefaults v:ext="edit" spidmax="1026" />
</xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapelayout v:ext="edit">
<o:idmap v:ext="edit" data="1" />
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]-->
<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext">Hi Fernando,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<clip><span style="color:windowtext"><o:p></o:p></span>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext">But absent
the free pool, that mechanism is not necessary and fair, it
is the opposite of that. In fact, you seem to be injecting
items that could be considered obviously unfair, such as
favoring new entrants and smaller companies. </span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
This is quiet obvious for me, this is the way it has been done so
far in other RIRs and I don't think they and the community who
developed such policies are wrong. It doesn't take much thought to
consider that existing companies who already hold IP space have ways
to keep going, re-use and optimize the use of IPv4 in order to make
more for less and as time goes it will be natural to use them more
for transition mechanisms and survive. New entrants would be hugely
discriminated if they become an AS and have to go straight to the
market. Pushing them to it would be a way for current holders to
protect themselves from new competition creating artificial
barriers, using a wrong mechanism and also to not treat them the
same way they were treated when they first asked they IP space in
the past. Therefore is pretty fair and correct to assign space only
to new entrants and other situations allowed by sections like 4.10.<br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:01ca01d55449$023485c0$069d9140$@iptrading.com">
<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext">I disagree
with your opinions about markets being unnatural and not
ideal, I hold the opposite view. Markets are the ideal
method of fairly distributing scarce and valuable assets,
and that is why they naturally evolve in every society.<br>
</span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
Of course you do. I apologize if this argument bothers you, but it
is a fact to me that trying to build such policies to push people
that way only favors transfer market, not organizations and not the
internet ecosystem, not for new companies to exist in the Internet.<br>
Market is far from an ideal method for distributing scarce resources
simply because who has more money will take them all and not
necessary who need the most and new entrants are the case.<br>
If we were talking about a private resource that companies
purchased, own and is not irrevocable fine it belong to them and
they may sell for whatever amount they like, but we are talking
about IP space which is very different.<br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:01ca01d55449$023485c0$069d9140$@iptrading.com">
<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext">I also agree
with the executive board decision to shut the waiting list
while at the same time observe that this unpalatable action
was only required due to the fraud magnet which is the
waiting list.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext">Opening an
office in Africa is to access the free pool remaining in
AFRINIC and is unrelated to inter-RIR transfers.</span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
If they do and use the addresses in Africa region then no problem at
all.<br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:01ca01d55449$023485c0$069d9140$@iptrading.com">
<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext">I reject the
ad-hominem implication that this proposal is designed to
favor my business. Please consider my arguments and not your
personal interpretations of my motives in any future
replies. This is a frequent occurrence for me as a broker
and it bothers me.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext">Regards,<br>
Mike<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span
style="color:windowtext"> ARIN-PPML
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net"><arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net></a> <b>On Behalf Of </b>Fernando
Frediani<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, August 16, 2019 11:17 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:arin-ppml@arin.net">arin-ppml@arin.net</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [arin-ppml] Draft Policy
ARIN-2019-17: Returned Addresses to the 4.10 Reserved
Pool<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p>Hello Mike<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>I didn't say those things, you are putting words in my mouth.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>What I said is that in current time things like new entrants,
critical infrastructure, and usage like the 4.10 pool should
be prioritized for various reasons and organizations under
these circumstances should not be directed to the market as
their first option therefore RIRs should not shape their
policies to push people to the transfer market which is not a
natural thing and ideally should not exist. I however
understand the need of it new a days and that this should be a
option for organizations who already hold IP space.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>With regards the shutdown of the waiting list by the
executive board I personally consider that a correct decision.
They have detected a fraud and risk of that happening again
and it is their role to do such things in order to protect the
RIR and ourselves in order to make sure that a few
organizations needs is not on the top of everybody needs. The
favoring of small members is another correct thing as well.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>With regards opening a office in Africa to get "free"
addresses fortunately the RIR doesn't allow inter-RIR
transfers and according to what have been discussed in the
list so far they are not willing to allow it anytime soon.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>There is no sense to put new entrants to get space from 4.4
or 4.10 as they are for a different and reasonable propose and
pushing them to market is exactly shaping policies to favor
private business like yours which is not the function of a RIR
and this community who develop these policies.<br>
Things change over time and we have do adapt to new scenarios
(the policies allowing transfers intra and inter RIR is a
example), but we must never forget some principles that has
always been base for correct IP space allocations.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Regards<br>
Fernando<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On 16/08/2019 10:43, Mike Burns wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext">Hi
Fernando,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext">Thanks for
your input. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext">I think
you are completely wrong in your interpretation of how
IPv4 addressing should be managed.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext">You cling
to old processes and thoughts associated with the free
pool era, which is gone.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext">Without
the presence of the free pool, the market is the
“necessary and fair” way to manage resources.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext">With both
the presence of the free pool and the market, there are
problems that manifested themselves in overt fraud.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext">This
situation caused unprecedented events like the unilateral
shutting down of the waiting list by the executive board,
the virtual writing of policy by the Advisory council, the
changing of waiting list rules mid-game, the rationale of
justifying the need for a block and then maintaining that
same need for an indeterminate time before allocation, the
creation of another class of addresses in ARIN space (not
easily distinguished), the favoring of small members over
large members, the FUD injected into project developments,
the incentives to lease space to maintain waiting-list
need, etc.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext">We only
have to look across the pond to see that any pool of
“free” addresses will be plundered by those willing to
skirt the rules for new entrants in RIPE or open an empty
office in Africa in order to access “free” addresses. You
don’t have to limit your thoughts to addresses, just think
about any situation where a valuable resource is available
for “free” and you will find fraud.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext">My hope
was the recent fraud recovery would provide an opportunity
to provide a block to everybody on the waiting list and
then be able to shut it down without anybody left on it
who was waiting for a long time. I think it’s the right
time to shutter the waiting list. Should any more
tinkering with the rules become necessary, it will likely
impact many more people adversely in the future if the
waiting list is more populated, as I believe it will, with
members placing their lottery bets. How many new ORG-IDs
will be granted to members holding more than a /20, for
the purpose of avoiding that new rule limiting the waiting
list to those with less than a /20? Whatever rule is
imposed, a way around it will be sought.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext">I think it
should be shut down, and new entrants buy from the market,
or adhere to the rules for 4.10 and 4.4.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext">Regards,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext">Mike</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span
style="color:windowtext"> ARIN-PPML <a
href="mailto:arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net"
moz-do-not-send="true"><arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net></a>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Fernando Frediani<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, August 15, 2019 6:04 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:arin-ppml@arin.net"
moz-do-not-send="true">arin-ppml@arin.net</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [arin-ppml] Draft Policy
ARIN-2019-17: Returned Addresses to the 4.10 Reserved
Pool</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p>The waiting list is a necessary and fair way to manage what
is left for the RIR to distribute to organizations according
to its mission and based on similar rules that were ever
used. If there is fraud so let's fix rules for the addresses
from these pools as it has been discussed recently about the
minimal wait period for transfers.<br>
What is out of the RIR's mission is shape its policies to
favor the transfer market which should never be seen as
something normal or natural or first option.<br>
Fernando<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On 15/08/2019 18:47, Mike Burns wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal">Hi Owen,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">It’s hard to predict when the useful
IPv4 lifetime will end, so it’s hard to say whether runout
of these reserved pools is unlikely, especially if
conditions change.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">If you feel 4.4 and 4.10 are severely
overstocked, maybe a proposal to release those
“sequestered” addresses should be forthcoming, as
maintaining those pools at those levels is counter to our
mission?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Do you have any comments on the problem
statement, and the idea that the haphazard and
unpredictable influx of addresses into the waiting list is
problematic? For example, doesn’t the current constitution
of the waiting list encourage virtually all ARIN members
to enter the lottery for a /22? The size is small, the
justification options pretty generous, the downside
minimal.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">In my mind the waiting list is a fraud
magnet and has outlived its usefulness, and yes, this is
an attempt to eliminate it without going down the auction
route. The addresses haven’t been destroyed, just taken
off the market, adding the tiniest bit to the existing
pools, whose size was approved by the community.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I support the policy as written and
amended.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Regards,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Mike<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> ARIN-PPML <a
href="mailto:arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net"
moz-do-not-send="true"><arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net></a>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Owen DeLong<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, August 15, 2019 5:10 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> WOOD Alison * DAS <a
href="mailto:Alison.WOOD@oregon.gov"
moz-do-not-send="true"><Alison.WOOD@oregon.gov></a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> arin-ppml <a
href="mailto:arin-ppml@arin.net"
moz-do-not-send="true"><arin-ppml@arin.net></a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [arin-ppml] Draft Policy
ARIN-2019-17: Returned Addresses to the 4.10 Reserved
Pool<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Really, it seems to me that this
proposal is another attempt at eliminating the waiting
list for unmet requests.<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">The first attempt (ARIN auctions the
space) met with resistance from ARIN’s legal team (for
good reason), so now this attempts to sequester the
space where it will be hard to distribute rather than
allowing the waiting list to have any potential to
compete with the transfer market.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">The proposed targets (4.4 and 4.10
pools) are well stocked and unlikely to run out in any
useful IPv4 lifetime.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">As such, restocking them from
returned space strikes me as just a way to sequester
this space where it cannot be used.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">IMHO, this is counter to ARIN’s
mission and should not be allowed.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I oppose the policy as written and as
proposed to be amended.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Owen<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Aug 15, 2019, at 13:55 ,
WOOD Alison * DAS via ARIN-PPML <<a
href="mailto:arin-ppml@arin.net"
moz-do-not-send="true">arin-ppml@arin.net</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#44546A">Thank
you for the continued input on this draft
policy proposal.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#44546A"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#44546A">I
will be updating the text of the draft policy
to include both 4.4 and 4.10 pools. Point of
information, the 4.4 pool currently has
approximately 391 /24’s and 4.10 has
approximately 15,753 /24’s available and are
not estimated to run out in the next five
years.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#44546A"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#44546A">Please
keep your feedback coming, it is very helpful
for the council.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#44546A"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#44546A">-Alison</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#44546A"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><b>From:</b><span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span>ARIN-PPML
[<a href="mailto:arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net"
moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net</a>]<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><b>On
Behalf Of<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Fernando
Frediani<br>
<b>Sent:</b><span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Tuesday,
July 30, 2019 6:44 AM<br>
<b>To:</b><span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span>arin-ppml
<<a href="mailto:arin-ppml@arin.net"
moz-do-not-send="true">arin-ppml@arin.net</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b><span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Re:
[arin-ppml] Draft Policy ARIN-2019-17:
Returned Addresses to the 4.10 Reserved Pool<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;background:white"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times
New Roman",serif">The point is that you
treating IP marketing as something 'natural' or
a 'default route' which it is not and can never
be. Natural is to receive some addresses from
the RIR in first place so they are treated as
anyone else was in the past and have a chance to
exist in the Internet with same conditions as
all others. From that if they need extra space
then fine to seek for alternative ways.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;background:white"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times
New Roman",serif">I don't think a new
entrants would automatically qualify for 4.10 in
all cases therefore any space left should be
targeted also to them as well to IPv6 transition
and critical infrastructure. Otherwise the
community will be creating an artificial barrier
to them in order to favor the IP market while
the RIR still has IPv4 space available for them.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;background:white"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times
New Roman",serif">Fernando</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">On
30/07/2019 10:30, Tom Fantacone wrote:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">I
would think that the majority of new
entrants would need at least some
allocation to help with IPv6 transition
and would qualify for addresses from the
4.10 pool. Depending on what they
receive from that pool and when, they
may not qualify for additional waiting
list addresses and would have to go to
the transfer market for additional IPv4
space anyway. Those that don't qualify
under 4.10 can still get smaller IPv4
blocks on the transfer market readily,
and the cost for blocks in the /24-/22
range is not prohibitive. Certainly an
organization seeking a small IPv4 block
for multi-homing or other purposes is
better off spending a few thousand
dollars to purchase a range than waiting
a year on the waiting list to put their
plans in motion.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;background:white"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"><br>
Note that while RIPE does not have a reserve
pool specifically for IPv6 transition, the
expectation of their final /8 policy was to
allow new entrants access to IPv4 to assist
in this transition. In reality, it didn't
work out that way and most of the /22
allocations to new LIRs from the final /8
were to existing organizations who spun up
new, related entities in order to increase
their IPv4 holdings:<br>
<a
href="https://labs.ripe.net/Members/wilhelm/so-long-last-8-and-thanks-for-all-the-allocations"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="color:purple"><br>
https://labs.ripe.net/Members/wilhelm/so-long-last-8-and-thanks-for-all-the-allocations</span></a><br>
<br>
I'm also sympathetic to new entrants, but
don't see the current waiting list as a
great help to them vs. the 4.10 pool or the
transfer market, both of which allow you
your allocation in a timely fashion.<br>
<br>
Best Regards,<br>
<br>
Tom Fantacone</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div id="Zm-_Id_-Sgn1">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">----
On Mon, 29 Jul 2019 11:39:32 -0400<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><b>Fernando
Frediani <<a
href="mailto:fhfrediani@gmail.com"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="color:purple">fhfrediani@gmail.com</span></a>></b><span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span>wrote
----</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote
style="border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC
1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in
5.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">I
find it interesting the idea of
privileging the pool dedicated to<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
facilitate IPv6 Deployment and I
also agree with the comments below
in<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
the sense that it's not very
beneficial do most ARIN members due
to max<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
size, /22, cannot be holding more
than a /20.<br>
<br>
However one point I couldn't
identify is where the new entrants
stand in<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
this new possible scenario ? Will
they only be able to apply under the<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
4.10 reserved pool ? If so for a
access/broadband ISPs may be easier
to<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
fit, but not necessarily for other
scenarios and types of ISPs.<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
Therefore if I didn't miss anything
these returned addresses should also<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
be able to go to new entrants, not
only to 4.10 reserved pool
conditions.<br>
<br>
Best regards<br>
Fernando Frediani<br>
<br>
On 25/07/2019 17:32, Tom Fantacone
wrote:<br>
> I found the wording of the
Problem Statement on this one a bit<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
> confusing. However, after
deciphering the effect of the actual
policy<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
> change I support it.<br>
><br>
> Essentially, all returned IPv4
space will no longer go to the
waiting<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
> list but will supplement the
4.10 reserved pool used to enhance
IPv6<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
> deployment. This essentially
kills off the waiting list.<br>
><br>
> The recent restrictions placed
on the waiting list to reduce fraud<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
> have hobbled it to the point
where it's not very beneficial to
most<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
> ARIN members. (Max size, /22,
cannot be holding more than a /20). <span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
> It's essentially only useful to
new entrants, but those that go on
it<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
> still have to wait many months
to receive their small allocation.
If<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
> they justify need now, but have
to wait that long, how critical is<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
> their need if they're willing
to wait that long? Small blocks are
not<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
> terribly expensive and can be
quickly gotten on the transfer
market. <span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
> I can understand waiting that
long for a large block needed for a<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
> longer term project due to
prohibitive cost, but I don't see a
great<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
> benefit to the waiting list as
it stands.<br>
><br>
> Also, if there's any fraud left
on the waiting list, this would kill
it.<br>
><br>
> I would hope, however, that if
implemented, those currently on the<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
> waiting list would be
grandfathered in. I do think some
entities with<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
> legitimate need got burned on
the last change made to the waiting
list.<br>
><br>
> At 04:05 PM 7/23/2019, ARIN
wrote:<br>
>> On 18 July 2019, the ARIN
Advisory Council (AC) accepted<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
>> "ARIN-prop-276: Returned
Addresses to the 4.10 Reserved Pool"
as a<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
>> Draft Policy.<br>
>><br>
>> Draft Policy ARIN-2019-17
is below and can be found at:<br>
>><br>
>><span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><a
href="https://www.arin.net/participate/policy/drafts/2019_17/"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="color:purple">https://www.arin.net/participate/policy/drafts/2019_17/</span></a><br>
>><br>
>> You are encouraged to
discuss all Draft Policies on PPML.
The AC will<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
>> evaluate the discussion in
order to assess the conformance of
this<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
>> draft policy with ARIN's
Principles of Internet number
resource<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
>> policy as stated in the
Policy Development Process (PDP).<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
>> Specifically, these
principles are:<br>
>><br>
>> * Enabling Fair and
Impartial Number Resource
Administration<br>
>> * Technically Sound<br>
>> * Supported by the
Community<br>
>><br>
>> The PDP can be found at:<br>
>><span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><a
href="https://www.arin.net/participate/policy/pdp/" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="color:purple">https://www.arin.net/participate/policy/pdp/</span></a><br>
>><br>
>> Draft Policies and
Proposals under discussion can be
found at:<br>
>><span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><a
href="https://www.arin.net/participate/policy/drafts/" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="color:purple">https://www.arin.net/participate/policy/drafts/</span></a><br>
>><br>
>> Regards,<br>
>><br>
>> Sean Hopkins<br>
>> Policy Analyst<br>
>> American Registry for
Internet Numbers (ARIN)<br>
>><br>
>> Draft Policy ARIN-2019-17:
Returned Addresses to the 4.10
Reserved Pool<br>
>><br>
>> Problem Statement:<br>
>><br>
>> An inconsistent and
unpredictable stream of address
space is an<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
>> unsuitable method of
populating the waiting list
(4.1.8.1) and<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
>> fulfilling subsequent
requests.<br>
>><br>
>> Policy statement:<br>
>><br>
>> Change "4.10. Dedicated
IPv4 Block to Facilitate IPv6
Deployment" to<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
>> "4.10 Dedicated IPv4 Pool
to Facilitate IPv6 Deployment"<br>
>><br>
>> Change" When ARIN receives
its last /8 IPv4 allocation from
IANA, a<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
>> contiguous /10 IPv4 block
will be set aside and dedicated to<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
>> facilitate IPv6 deployment.
Allocations and assignments from
this<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
>> block " to "In addition to
the contiguous /10 IPv4 block set
aside<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
>> and dedicated to facilitate
IPv6 deployment, all returns and<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
>> revocations of IPv4 blocks
will be added to the pool of space<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
>> dedicated to the
facilitation of IPv6 deployment.
Allocations and<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
>> assignments from this pool
"<br>
>><br>
>> Change "This block will be
subject to a minimum size allocation
of<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
>> /28 and a maximum size
allocation of /24. ARIN should use
sparse<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
>> allocation when possible
within that /10 block." to "This
pool will<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
>> be subject to a minimum
size allocation of /28 and a maximum
sized<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
>> allocation of /24. ARIN
should use sparse allocation when
possible<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
>> within the pool."<br>
>><br>
>> Comments:<br>
>><br>
>> Timetable for
implementation: Immediate<br>
>>
_______________________________________________<br>
>> ARIN-PPML<br>
>> You are receiving this
message because you are subscribed
to<br>
>> the ARIN Public Policy
Mailing List (<a
href="mailto:ARIN-PPML@arin.net"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="color:purple">ARIN-PPML@arin.net</span></a>).<br>
>> Unsubscribe or manage your
mailing list subscription at:<br>
>><span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><a
href="https://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="color:purple">https://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml</span></a><br>
>> Please contact<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><a
href="mailto:info@arin.net"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="color:purple">info@arin.net</span></a><span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span>if
you experience any issues.<br>
><br>
><br>
>
_______________________________________________<br>
> ARIN-PPML<br>
> You are receiving this message
because you are subscribed to<br>
> the ARIN Public Policy Mailing
List (<a
href="mailto:ARIN-PPML@arin.net"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="color:purple">ARIN-PPML@arin.net</span></a>).<br>
> Unsubscribe or manage your
mailing list subscription at:<br>
><span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><a
href="https://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="color:purple">https://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml</span></a><br>
> Please contact<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><a
href="mailto:info@arin.net"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="color:purple">info@arin.net</span></a><span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span>if
you experience any issues.<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
ARIN-PPML<br>
You are receiving this message
because you are subscribed to<br>
the ARIN Public Policy Mailing List
(<a href="mailto:ARIN-PPML@arin.net"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="color:purple">ARIN-PPML@arin.net</span></a>).<br>
Unsubscribe or manage your mailing
list subscription at:<br>
<a
href="https://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="color:purple">https://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml</span></a><br>
Please contact<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><a
href="mailto:info@arin.net"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="color:purple">info@arin.net</span></a><span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span>if
you experience any issues.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;background:white">_______________________________________________</span><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"><br>
<span style="background:white">ARIN-PPML</span><br>
<span style="background:white">You are receiving
this message because you are subscribed to</span><br>
<span style="background:white">the ARIN Public
Policy Mailing List (<a
href="mailto:ARIN-PPML@arin.net"
moz-do-not-send="true">ARIN-PPML@arin.net</a>).</span><br>
<span style="background:white">Unsubscribe or
manage your mailing list subscription at:</span><br>
<span style="background:white"><a
href="https://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml</a></span><br>
<span style="background:white">Please contact <a
href="mailto:info@arin.net"
moz-do-not-send="true">info@arin.net</a> if
you experience any issues.</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>ARIN-PPML<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>the ARIN Public Policy Mailing List (<a href="mailto:ARIN-PPML@arin.net" moz-do-not-send="true">ARIN-PPML@arin.net</a>).<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href="https://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml" moz-do-not-send="true">https://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Please contact <a href="mailto:info@arin.net" moz-do-not-send="true">info@arin.net</a> if you experience any issues.<o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</div>
</blockquote>
</body>
</html>