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<p>A lease policy should never exist in my opinion and registries
should stand strong against it for the simple reason that IPs are
not assets or something that belong to a company for it to lease.</p>
<p>Is it always necessary to remind that IP addresses are meant to
be used by the resource holders who justified for that ? If
someone is leasing it it obviously means it does not need and
justify anymore for that IP space and any RIR should recover them
immediately. If such a policy doesn't exist on its terms it should
exist and should be discussed to make it sooner.<br>
I would recommend some Jon Postel reading to those who believe "it
is Ok to lease IPs" as if they were they very own asset as a
router or a server that you buy with a invoice and you do whatever
you like with it.<br>
</p>
<p>This type of thing goes pretty much against concepts of
conservation and justification.<br>
Imagine if someone asked a RIR more IP address and may justify as
"I need them in order to lease them". That's what a lease policy
would walk towards to.</p>
<p>As I mentioned in the other message, the fact the people do
anyway and the whois doesn't get updated is **less important**
than having people monetizing IP addresses in such way while there
are others on waiting lists that truly justify for those
addresses.</p>
<p>Regards<br>
Fernando<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 29/05/2019 18:02, Mike Burns wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:030e01d51661$d6bae8f0$8430bad0$@iptrading.com">
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<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal">Hi Robert,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">The problem of leasing space before the 12
month waiting period, so as *<b>only</b>* to avoid that
period, is small in my experience.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">After a year, any such lessor could sell if
they wanted to, and they have the same sell/lease incentives
as any other ARIN holder.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Do you have evidence that people are
monetizing waiting-list addresses prior to the 12 month period
by leasing them? <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">What you say below, however, is completely
correct.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I have tried to direct the community
towards the glaring absence of a lease policy at any registry.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I believe it’s time for such a policy,
given the market circumstances we find ourselves in.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Such a policy would allow for open leasing,
with certain recording requirements for abuse contacts of the
lessee, etc.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I think such a policy would be in-scope and
would yield, in a negative way, to the desired results of the
anti-BGP hacking policy.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Regards,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Mike<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Robert Clarke
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:robert@rjfc.net"><robert@rjfc.net></a> <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, May 29, 2019 4:24 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Mike Burns <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:mike@iptrading.com"><mike@iptrading.com></a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Fernando Frediani <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:fhfrediani@gmail.com"><fhfrediani@gmail.com></a>;
arin-ppml <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:arin-ppml@arin.net"><arin-ppml@arin.net></a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [arin-ppml] Waiting List IPv4 blocks
transferred after issuance<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Hello Mike,<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Why are you using John's "waiting list
IPv4 blocks transferred" numbers as a baseline for the /19
numbers? This is completely arbitrary and doesn't give any
scale as to the problem with fraud. See my earlier reply to
John's email in the other thread:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">"<span style="color:black">Thanks for
sharing. I'd like to note that it can be dangerous to use
the blocks transferred via 8.2/8.3/9.4 as a metric for
abuse. A fraudster that gets past ARIN's scrutiny and
obtains IPs with fraudulent information is probably smart
enough to lease their IPs as opposed to selling the space
outright. There is a huge market for leased space, and
those deals happen behind closed doors with no oversight
from ARIN. IP addresses go for $0.2-0.5/mo depending on
term/IP reputation/size which could lead to $XX,XXX in
illicit revenue with no risk of ARIN's scrutiny which
would normally occur during the transfer process."</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Thanks,<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">Robert
Clarke<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On May 29, 2019, at 8:13 AM, Mike
Burns <<a href="mailto:mike@iptrading.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">mike@iptrading.com</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white">Hi
Fernando,<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white">Thanks for
the discussion.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white">Many feel
as you do, that unused addresses should be returned to
ARIN for subsequent distribution to those in need.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white">Unfortunately,
that policy was not successful in bringing unused
addresses into actual use by those in need.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white">The
community decided to harness the profit motive to
incentive this process, and by all accounts it is
working.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white">Unfortunately
the profit motive also incentivizes fraudulent
plundering of the waiting list pool.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white">So I am
happy to discuss the correct balancing of things to
prevent fraud but allow the market to continue to
drive us towards the desirable ends of accurate
registration and efficient use.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white">Since the
/19 is the threshold number of sorts for flipping, I
could accept a /20 as the maximum size.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white">I think a
2 year wait is reasonable, but I don’t see the
additional benefit as worth the distinction of ARIN
space into more classes.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white">And making
it more complicated with multiple waiting periods is
even less desirable, IMO.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white">Regards,<br>
Mike<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><b>From:</b><span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span>ARIN-PPML
<<a href="mailto:arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net"
moz-do-not-send="true">arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net</a>><span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><b>On
Behalf Of<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Fernando
Frediani<br>
<b>Sent:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Wednesday,
May 29, 2019 10:50 AM<br>
<b>To:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><a
href="mailto:arin-ppml@arin.net"
moz-do-not-send="true">arin-ppml@arin.net</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Re:
[arin-ppml] Waiting List IPv4 blocks transferred
after issuance<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white">On
29/05/2019 11:31, Mike Burns wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white">Orgs
will wait out any period, sitting with unused
addresses until they reach the resale date. Not
efficient use.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">If
it's not a legacy resource and if ARIN gets to know
about it, it may just recover this addresses even if
the resource holder is paying it correctly. That's
how it should work.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white">People
will lease unused addresses to others and Whois
accuracy will suffer if they can’t resell them. Not
accurate registration.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">If
people lease they prove they have no use for the
addresses and again ARIN should recover them at any
time. If whois is inaccurate, well it is their fault
and not policies fault. They must bind to the
current rules not the other way round.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white">I think
we should give everybody currently on the list up to
a /19 and then restrict new entries to a /22.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white">Fair to
discuss this scenario, although I still think /19 is
too much. Agree on /22 for new entries.<br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white">I think
a 5 year resale wait is too long, based on the
paltry resales of prior waiting-list subnets smaller
than /19.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white">It may be
long, but 2 years seems a little short and
'acceptable' for a fraudster. Perhaps something in
between.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white">I
support a /22 restriction for new entrants, a /19
max for current list members, and maintenance of the
12 month wait for simplicity’s sake.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white">What about
discuss /22 for new entrants, /20 for current list
members and 36, 42 or 48 months for transfers ? Seems
more reasonable in my view and cover most aspects of
this discussion.<br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white">Regards,<br>
Mike<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><b>From:</b><span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span>ARIN-PPML<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><a
href="mailto:arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="color:purple"><arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net></span></a><span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><b>On
Behalf Of<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Fernando
Frediani<br>
<b>Sent:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Wednesday,
May 29, 2019 8:51 AM<br>
<b>To:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><a
href="mailto:arin-ppml@arin.net"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="color:purple">arin-ppml@arin.net</span></a><br>
<b>Subject:</b><span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Re:
[arin-ppml] Waiting List IPv4 blocks transferred
after issuance<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">+1<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white">On
28/05/2019 23:52, Owen DeLong wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white">Mike,<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white">Yes
and no. I believe that the lack of legacy
holders for any blocks issued under 4.1.8
reduces the need for the market.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white">Defunct
organizations can easily be reclaimed in this
space because they stop paying their ARIN bill.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white">Eliminating
the resale value of these addresses won’t really
encourage squatting on them and limiting the
size of organization and size of block that can
benefit from 4.1.8 further helps to reduce the
potential for hoarding.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white">I
realize that as a broker, any address that can’t
be monetized is a lost opportunity for your
organization, but I think there’s plenty of
addresses out there that haven’t been processed
through 4.1.8, so I don’t think limiting the
resale potential of such blocks to reduce fraud
is a bad idea.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white">Owen<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white">On May 28, 2019,
at 12:46 , Mike Burns <<a
href="mailto:mike@iptrading.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="color:purple">mike@iptrading.com</span></a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white">The percentages
of blocks transferred takes a
significant leap at the /19 size.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white">Below that, the
percentages are all below 7%.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white">At /19 and
above, the percentages are all above
21%.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white">Seems like a
natural demarcation for maximum block
size, but prices do continue to rise.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white">While we want
to fight fraud, we should still remember
the underlying reasons for the Ipv4
transfer market apply to these addresses
as well.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white">That is, the
market provides incentives for efficient
use and accurate registration.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white">Regards,<br>
Mike<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
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<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><b>From:</b><span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span>ARIN-PPML
<<a
href="mailto:arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="color:#954F72">arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net</span></a>><span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><b>On
Behalf Of<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span></b>John
Curran<br>
<b>Sent:</b><span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Tuesday,
May 28, 2019 1:53 PM<br>
<b>To:</b><span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span>ARIN-PPML
List <<a
href="mailto:arin-ppml@arin.net"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="color:#954F72">arin-ppml@arin.net</span></a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b><span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span>[arin-ppml]
Waiting List IPv4 blocks transferred
after issuance<br>
<b>Importance:</b><span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span>High<o:p></o:p></p>
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style="background:white">Folks - <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white">It occurred
to me that it might be useful to have
a quick summary of waiting list blocks
issued and subsequently transferred. <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white">Attached is
the distribution (count per prefix
size) of all blocks that have been
issued via ARIN's waiting list policy
and subsequently transferred via NRPM
8.2/8.3/8.4 policy.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white">/John<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"
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<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white">President
and CEO<o:p></o:p></p>
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style="background:white">American
Registry for Internet Numbers<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">_______________________________________________<br>
ARIN-PPML<br>
You are receiving this message because
you are subscribed to<br>
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moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#954F72">ARIN-PPML@arin.net</span></a><span
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Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list
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style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"><br>
Please contact<span
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style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:purple">info@arin.net</span></a><span
class="apple-converted-space"><span
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style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">if
you experience any issues.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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</blockquote>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<pre style="background:white">_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="background:white">ARIN-PPML<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="background:white">You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="background:white">the ARIN Public Policy Mailing List (<a href="mailto:ARIN-PPML@arin.net" moz-do-not-send="true"><span style="color:purple">ARIN-PPML@arin.net</span></a>).<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="background:white">Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="background:white"><a href="https://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml" moz-do-not-send="true"><span style="color:purple">https://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml</span></a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="background:white">Please contact <a href="mailto:info@arin.net" moz-do-not-send="true"><span style="color:purple">info@arin.net</span></a> if you experience any issues.<o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;background:white">_______________________________________________</span><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"><br>
<span style="background:white">ARIN-PPML</span><br>
<span style="background:white">You are receiving this
message because you are subscribed to</span><br>
<span style="background:white">the ARIN Public Policy
Mailing List (<a href="mailto:ARIN-PPML@arin.net"
moz-do-not-send="true">ARIN-PPML@arin.net</a>).</span><br>
<span style="background:white">Unsubscribe or manage
your mailing list subscription at:</span><br>
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href="https://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml</a></span><br>
<span style="background:white">Please contact <a
href="mailto:info@arin.net" moz-do-not-send="true">info@arin.net</a>
if you experience any issues.</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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</blockquote>
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