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<p class="MsoNormal">It all sounds good in theory but it is pretty much impossible to enforce a ban on leasing IP space to another organization. If AT&T has a very large customer who wants to lease a /20 and AT&T has it and wants to lease it to them, it’s
the exact same thing as if a company we’ve never heard of wants to lease it to another organization. Somehow trying to put limitations on it like it has to be leased in concert with another service sounds good, but there really isn’t any way for ARIN to enforce
that – and that hasn’t been a requirement up until now. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Nobody wants fraud as it hurts all legitimate providers sooner or later, but the real world of tying policy in knots to try to prevent fraud has the strong likelihood of stopping legitimate providers from offering legitimate services.
The best that can be done is try to have reasonable policies to try and prevent fraud at the time of application for number resources. If we can learn from the recent fraud case to tighten up the application process and at the same time allow legitimate providers
to get resources then we’ve done all we can really do in the real world. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I find the discussion of trying to find a maximum size like a /19 or /20 or /21 unreasonable. I remember not so long ago T-Mobile came to ARIN looking for a /8. I assume they legitimately needed it and ARIN helped them get something like
¾ of a /8 in multiple blocks. We were not at runout yet but of course that amount of resources speeded up the runout timeframe. I think that any organization should be able to get on the waiting list for any size block from /8 up. Obviously ARIN can’t award
a very large block if it doesn’t have the space to begin with, but conceptually why would a request for a /8 from a legitimate provider like T-Mobile not be any more valid than a request for a /20 from a smaller legitimate provider – assuming that they can
justify their need per existing or improved policy? I get it that setting a maximum of a /19 or /20 or /21 might give resources to more providers, but in my opinion what is the real argument that a larger bock request shouldn’t be valid.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">ARIN should do the best they can to help all providers with resources they can justify. That is actually the fairest policy of all. I’m probably speaking to deaf ears out there about fairness but that’s my two cents. Cheers!<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="font-family:"Trebuchet MS",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="font-family:"Trebuchet MS",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Steven Ryerse<o:p></o:p></span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="font-family:"Trebuchet MS",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">President<o:p></o:p></span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="font-family:"Trebuchet MS",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">100 Ashford Center North, Suite 110, Atlanta, GA 30338<o:p></o:p></span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="font-family:"Trebuchet MS",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><a href="http://www.eclipse-networks.com"><span style="color:#0563C1">www.eclipse-networks.com</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="font-family:"Trebuchet MS",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">770.656.1460 - Cell<o:p></o:p></span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="font-family:"Trebuchet MS",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">770.399.9099- Office<o:p></o:p></span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"MS Mincho",serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><img border="0" width="56" height="37" style="width:.5833in;height:.3854in" id="Picture_x0020_1" src="cid:image001.jpg@01D51655.79E1CC90" alt="Description: Description: Eclipse Networks Logo_small.png"></span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"MS Gothic";color:#1F497D">℠</span><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">
</span><span style="font-family:"Trebuchet MS",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Eclipse Networks, Inc.</span><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent:.5in"><sup><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> Conquering Complex Networks</span></sup><sup><span style="font-size:9.0pt;color:#1F497D">℠<o:p></o:p></span></sup></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> ARIN-PPML <arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net> <b>On Behalf Of
</b>Robert Clarke<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, May 29, 2019 4:49 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> bokhari@cronomagic.com<br>
<b>Cc:</b> arin-ppml <arin-ppml@arin.net><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [arin-ppml] Waiting List IPv4 blocks transferred after issuance<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Hi Hayee,<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">A legitimate ISP leasing their space is of course is legal. In this case I'm talking about bad actors who provide false information to ARIN to get large block sizes, and then turn around and lease them to third parties. My point is that
transferring/selling IPv4 blocks is not the only way to make a large amount of money by providing fraudulent information to ARIN. For this reason it does not make sense to use the transfer/block size information that John provided as validity that a /19 or
lower somehow leads to less fraud.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Thanks,<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black">Robert Clarke<br>
M: +1 (425) 442-6485<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
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<p class="MsoNormal">On May 29, 2019, at 1:38 PM, Hayee Bokhari <<a href="mailto:bokhari@cronomagic.com">bokhari@cronomagic.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);font-variant-caps: normal;text-align:start;-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;word-spacing:0px">
<span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">Robert,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);font-variant-caps: normal;text-align:start;-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;word-spacing:0px">
<span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">If the IP belongs to an ISP or a Network provider then every ISP or Network carrier always lease their IP's to their clients, that does not make it illegal, that is their business.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);font-variant-caps: normal;text-align:start;-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;word-spacing:0px">
<span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">Thanks<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);font-variant-caps: normal;text-align:start;-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;word-spacing:0px">
<span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">Hayee<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="color:windowtext">Hello Mike,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext">Why are you using John's "waiting list IPv4 blocks transferred" numbers as a baseline for the /19 numbers? This is completely arbitrary and doesn't give any scale as to the problem with fraud. See my earlier
reply to John's email in the other thread:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext">"Thanks for sharing. I'd like to note that it can be dangerous to use the blocks transferred via 8.2/8.3/9.4 as a metric for abuse. A fraudster that gets past ARIN's scrutiny and obtains IPs with fraudulent
information is probably smart enough to lease their IPs as opposed to selling the space outright. There is a huge market for leased space, and those deals happen behind closed doors with no oversight from ARIN. IP addresses go for $0.2-0.5/mo depending on
term/IP reputation/size which could lead to $XX,XXX in illicit revenue with no risk of ARIN's scrutiny which would normally occur during the transfer process."<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext">Thanks,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext">Robert Clarke<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext"><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext">On May 29, 2019, at 8:13 AM, Mike Burns <<a href="mailto:mike@iptrading.com">mike@iptrading.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="color:windowtext">Hi Fernando,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="color:windowtext"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="color:windowtext">Thanks for the discussion.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="color:windowtext">Many feel as you do, that unused addresses should be returned to ARIN for subsequent distribution to those in need.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="color:windowtext">Unfortunately, that policy was not successful in bringing unused addresses into actual use by those in need.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="color:windowtext">The community decided to harness the profit motive to incentive this process, and by all accounts it is working.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="color:windowtext"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="color:windowtext">Unfortunately the profit motive also incentivizes fraudulent plundering of the waiting list pool.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="color:windowtext"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="color:windowtext">So I am happy to discuss the correct balancing of things to prevent fraud but allow the market to continue to drive us towards the desirable ends of accurate registration and efficient
use.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="color:windowtext"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="color:windowtext">Since the /19 is the threshold number of sorts for flipping, I could accept a /20 as the maximum size.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="color:windowtext">I think a 2 year wait is reasonable, but I don’t see the additional benefit as worth the distinction of ARIN space into more classes.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="color:windowtext">And making it more complicated with multiple waiting periods is even less desirable, IMO.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="color:windowtext"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="color:windowtext">Regards,<br>
Mike<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="color:windowtext"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="color:windowtext"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="color:windowtext"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="color:windowtext"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><b><span style="color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span class="apple-converted-space"><span style="color:windowtext"> </span></span><span style="color:windowtext">ARIN-PPML <<a href="mailto:arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net">arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net</a>><span class="apple-converted-space"><span style="color:windowtext"> </span></span><b>On
Behalf Of<span class="apple-converted-space"><span style="color:windowtext"> </span></span></b>Fernando Frediani<br>
<b>Sent:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"><span style="color:windowtext"> </span></span>Wednesday, May 29, 2019 10:50 AM<br>
<b>To:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"><span style="color:windowtext"> </span></span><a href="mailto:arin-ppml@arin.net">arin-ppml@arin.net</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"><span style="color:windowtext"> </span></span>Re: [arin-ppml] Waiting List IPv4 blocks transferred after issuance<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="color:windowtext"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="color:windowtext">On 29/05/2019 11:31, Mike Burns wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="color:windowtext">Orgs will wait out any period, sitting with unused addresses until they reach the resale date. Not efficient use.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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</blockquote>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:windowtext">If it's not a legacy resource and if ARIN gets to know about it, it may just recover this addresses even if the resource holder is
paying it correctly. That's how it should work.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<blockquote style="margin-left:24.0pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="color:windowtext"><br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="color:windowtext">People will lease unused addresses to others and Whois accuracy will suffer if they can’t resell them. Not accurate registration.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:windowtext">If people lease they prove they have no use for the addresses and again ARIN should recover them at any time. If whois is inaccurate,
well it is their fault and not policies fault. They must bind to the current rules not the other way round.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="color:windowtext"><br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="color:windowtext">I think we should give everybody currently on the list up to a /19 and then restrict new entries to a /22.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="color:windowtext">Fair to discuss this scenario, although I still think /19 is too much. Agree on /22 for new entries.<br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="color:windowtext">I think a 5 year resale wait is too long, based on the paltry resales of prior waiting-list subnets smaller than /19.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="color:windowtext">It may be long, but 2 years seems a little short and 'acceptable' for a fraudster. Perhaps something in between.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="color:windowtext">I support a /22 restriction for new entrants, a /19 max for current list members, and maintenance of the 12 month wait for simplicity’s sake.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="color:windowtext">What about discuss /22 for new entrants, /20 for current list members and 36, 42 or 48 months for transfers ? Seems more reasonable in my view and cover most aspects of this discussion.<br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="color:windowtext"><br>
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<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="color:windowtext"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="color:windowtext">Regards,<br>
Mike<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><b><span style="color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span class="apple-converted-space"><span style="color:windowtext"> </span></span><span style="color:windowtext">ARIN-PPML<span class="apple-converted-space"><span style="color:windowtext"> </span></span><a href="mailto:arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net"><span style="color:purple"><arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net></span></a><span class="apple-converted-space"><span style="color:windowtext"> </span></span><b>On
Behalf Of<span class="apple-converted-space"><span style="color:windowtext"> </span></span></b>Fernando Frediani<br>
<b>Sent:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"><span style="color:windowtext"> </span></span>Wednesday, May 29, 2019 8:51 AM<br>
<b>To:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"><span style="color:windowtext"> </span></span><a href="mailto:arin-ppml@arin.net"><span style="color:purple">arin-ppml@arin.net</span></a><br>
<b>Subject:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"><span style="color:windowtext"> </span></span>Re: [arin-ppml] Waiting List IPv4 blocks transferred after issuance<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="color:windowtext"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:windowtext">+1<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="color:windowtext">On 28/05/2019 23:52, Owen DeLong wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="color:windowtext">Mike,<span class="apple-converted-space"><span style="color:windowtext"> </span></span><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="color:windowtext"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="color:windowtext">Yes and no. I believe that the lack of legacy holders for any blocks issued under 4.1.8 reduces the need for the market.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="color:windowtext"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="color:windowtext">Defunct organizations can easily be reclaimed in this space because they stop paying their ARIN bill.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="color:windowtext"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="color:windowtext">Eliminating the resale value of these addresses won’t really encourage squatting on them and limiting the size of organization and size of block that can benefit from 4.1.8 further
helps to reduce the potential for hoarding.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="color:windowtext"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="color:windowtext">I realize that as a broker, any address that can’t be monetized is a lost opportunity for your organization, but I think there’s plenty of addresses out there that haven’t been processed
through 4.1.8, so I don’t think limiting the resale potential of such blocks to reduce fraud is a bad idea.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="color:windowtext"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="color:windowtext">Owen<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="color:windowtext"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<br>
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<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="color:windowtext">On May 28, 2019, at 12:46 , Mike Burns <<a href="mailto:mike@iptrading.com"><span style="color:purple">mike@iptrading.com</span></a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="color:windowtext"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="color:windowtext">The percentages of blocks transferred takes a significant leap at the /19 size.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="color:windowtext">Below that, the percentages are all below 7%.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="color:windowtext">At /19 and above, the percentages are all above 21%.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="color:windowtext">Seems like a natural demarcation for maximum block size, but prices do continue to rise.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="color:windowtext">While we want to fight fraud, we should still remember the underlying reasons for the Ipv4 transfer market apply to these addresses as well.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="color:windowtext">That is, the market provides incentives for efficient use and accurate registration.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="color:windowtext"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="color:windowtext">Regards,<br>
Mike<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="color:windowtext"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="color:windowtext"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="color:windowtext"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="color:windowtext"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><b><span style="color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span class="apple-converted-space"><span style="color:windowtext"> </span></span><span style="color:windowtext">ARIN-PPML <<a href="mailto:arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net"><span style="color:#954F72">arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net</span></a>><span class="apple-converted-space"><span style="color:windowtext"> </span></span><b>On
Behalf Of<span class="apple-converted-space"><span style="color:windowtext"> </span></span></b>John Curran<br>
<b>Sent:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"><span style="color:windowtext"> </span></span>Tuesday, May 28, 2019 1:53 PM<br>
<b>To:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"><span style="color:windowtext"> </span></span>ARIN-PPML List <<a href="mailto:arin-ppml@arin.net"><span style="color:#954F72">arin-ppml@arin.net</span></a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"><span style="color:windowtext"> </span></span>[arin-ppml] Waiting List IPv4 blocks transferred after issuance<br>
<b>Importance:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"><span style="color:windowtext"> </span></span>High<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="color:windowtext"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="color:windowtext">Folks - <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="color:windowtext"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="color:windowtext">It occurred to me that it might be useful to have a quick summary of waiting list blocks issued and subsequently transferred. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="color:windowtext"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="color:windowtext">Attached is the distribution (count per prefix size) of all blocks that have been issued via ARIN's waiting list policy and subsequently transferred via NRPM 8.2/8.3/8.4 policy.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="color:windowtext"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="color:windowtext">FYI,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="color:windowtext">/John<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="color:windowtext"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="color:windowtext">John Curran<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="color:windowtext">President and CEO<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="color:windowtext">American Registry for Internet Numbers<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="color:windowtext"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="color:windowtext"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="color:windowtext"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="color:windowtext"><image001.png><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:windowtext">_______________________________________________<br>
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You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to<br>
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</blockquote>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="color:windowtext"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="color:windowtext"><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<pre style="background:white"><span style="color:windowtext">_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre style="background:white"><span style="color:windowtext">ARIN-PPML<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre style="background:white"><span style="color:windowtext">You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre style="background:white"><span style="color:windowtext">the ARIN Public Policy Mailing List (<a href="mailto:ARIN-PPML@arin.net"><span style="color:purple">ARIN-PPML@arin.net</span></a>).<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
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<pre style="background:white"><span style="color:windowtext">Please contact <a href="mailto:info@arin.net"><span style="color:purple">info@arin.net</span></a> if you experience any issues.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:windowtext;background:white">_______________________________________________</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:windowtext"><br>
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<span style="background:white">Please contact<span class="apple-converted-space"><span style="color:windowtext"> </span></span><a href="mailto:info@arin.net">info@arin.net</a><span class="apple-converted-space"><span style="color:windowtext"> </span></span>if
you experience any issues.</span></span><span style="color:windowtext"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</blockquote>
</td>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">Hello Mike,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">Why are you using John's "waiting list IPv4 blocks transferred" numbers as a baseline for the /19 numbers? This is completely arbitrary and doesn't give any scale as to the
problem with fraud. See my earlier reply to John's email in the other thread:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">"Thanks for sharing. I'd like to note that it can be dangerous to use the blocks transferred via 8.2/8.3/9.4 as a metric for abuse. A fraudster that gets past ARIN's scrutiny
and obtains IPs with fraudulent information is probably smart enough to lease their IPs as opposed to selling the space outright. There is a huge market for leased space, and those deals happen behind closed doors with no oversight from ARIN. IP addresses
go for $0.2-0.5/mo depending on term/IP reputation/size which could lead to $XX,XXX in illicit revenue with no risk of ARIN's scrutiny which would normally occur during the transfer process."<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">Thanks,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">Robert Clarke<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<blockquote style="margin-left:24.0pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">On May 29, 2019, at 8:13 AM, Mike Burns <<a href="mailto:mike@iptrading.com">mike@iptrading.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white">Hi Fernando,<o:p></o:p></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white">Thanks for the discussion.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white">Many feel as you do, that unused addresses should be returned to ARIN for subsequent distribution to those in need.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white">Unfortunately, that policy was not successful in bringing unused addresses into actual use by those in need.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white">The community decided to harness the profit motive to incentive this process, and by all accounts it is working.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white">Unfortunately the profit motive also incentivizes fraudulent plundering of the waiting list pool.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white">So I am happy to discuss the correct balancing of things to prevent fraud but allow the market to continue to drive us towards the desirable ends of accurate registration and efficient use.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white">Since the /19 is the threshold number of sorts for flipping, I could accept a /20 as the maximum size.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white">I think a 2 year wait is reasonable, but I don’t see the additional benefit as worth the distinction of ARIN space into more classes.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white">And making it more complicated with multiple waiting periods is even less desirable, IMO.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white">Regards,<br>
Mike<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><b>From:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>ARIN-PPML <<a href="mailto:arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net">arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net</a>><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><b>On Behalf Of<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Fernando
Frediani<br>
<b>Sent:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Wednesday, May 29, 2019 10:50 AM<br>
<b>To:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:arin-ppml@arin.net">arin-ppml@arin.net</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [arin-ppml] Waiting List IPv4 blocks transferred after issuance<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white">On 29/05/2019 11:31, Mike Burns wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white">Orgs will wait out any period, sitting with unused addresses until they reach the resale date. Not efficient use.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">If it's not a legacy resource and if ARIN gets to know about it, it may just recover this addresses even if the resource holder is paying it correctly.
That's how it should work.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white">People will lease unused addresses to others and Whois accuracy will suffer if they can’t resell them. Not accurate registration.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">If people lease they prove they have no use for the addresses and again ARIN should recover them at any time. If whois is inaccurate, well it is their
fault and not policies fault. They must bind to the current rules not the other way round.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white">I think we should give everybody currently on the list up to a /19 and then restrict new entries to a /22.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white">Fair to discuss this scenario, although I still think /19 is too much. Agree on /22 for new entries.<br>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white">I think a 5 year resale wait is too long, based on the paltry resales of prior waiting-list subnets smaller than /19.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white">It may be long, but 2 years seems a little short and 'acceptable' for a fraudster. Perhaps something in between.<br>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white">I support a /22 restriction for new entrants, a /19 max for current list members, and maintenance of the 12 month wait for simplicity’s sake.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white">What about discuss /22 for new entrants, /20 for current list members and 36, 42 or 48 months for transfers ? Seems more reasonable in my view and cover most aspects of this discussion.<br>
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<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white">Regards,<br>
Mike<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><b>From:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>ARIN-PPML<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net"><span style="color:purple"><arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net></span></a><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><b>On
Behalf Of<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Fernando Frediani<br>
<b>Sent:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Wednesday, May 29, 2019 8:51 AM<br>
<b>To:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:arin-ppml@arin.net"><span style="color:purple">arin-ppml@arin.net</span></a><br>
<b>Subject:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [arin-ppml] Waiting List IPv4 blocks transferred after issuance<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">+1<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white">On 28/05/2019 23:52, Owen DeLong wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white">Mike,<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white">Yes and no. I believe that the lack of legacy holders for any blocks issued under 4.1.8 reduces the need for the market.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white">Defunct organizations can easily be reclaimed in this space because they stop paying their ARIN bill.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white">Eliminating the resale value of these addresses won’t really encourage squatting on them and limiting the size of organization and size of block that can benefit from 4.1.8 further helps to reduce the potential
for hoarding.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white">I realize that as a broker, any address that can’t be monetized is a lost opportunity for your organization, but I think there’s plenty of addresses out there that haven’t been processed through 4.1.8, so I don’t
think limiting the resale potential of such blocks to reduce fraud is a bad idea.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white">Owen<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white">On May 28, 2019, at 12:46 , Mike Burns <<a href="mailto:mike@iptrading.com"><span style="color:purple">mike@iptrading.com</span></a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white">The percentages of blocks transferred takes a significant leap at the /19 size.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white">Below that, the percentages are all below 7%.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white">At /19 and above, the percentages are all above 21%.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white">Seems like a natural demarcation for maximum block size, but prices do continue to rise.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white">While we want to fight fraud, we should still remember the underlying reasons for the Ipv4 transfer market apply to these addresses as well.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white">That is, the market provides incentives for efficient use and accurate registration.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white">Regards,<br>
Mike<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><b>From:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>ARIN-PPML <<a href="mailto:arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net"><span style="color:#954F72">arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net</span></a>><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><b>On
Behalf Of<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></b>John Curran<br>
<b>Sent:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Tuesday, May 28, 2019 1:53 PM<br>
<b>To:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>ARIN-PPML List <<a href="mailto:arin-ppml@arin.net"><span style="color:#954F72">arin-ppml@arin.net</span></a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>[arin-ppml] Waiting List IPv4 blocks transferred after issuance<br>
<b>Importance:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>High<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white">Folks - <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white">It occurred to me that it might be useful to have a quick summary of waiting list blocks issued and subsequently transferred. <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white">Attached is the distribution (count per prefix size) of all blocks that have been issued via ARIN's waiting list policy and subsequently transferred via NRPM 8.2/8.3/8.4 policy.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white">FYI,<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white">/John<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white">John Curran<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white">President and CEO<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white">American Registry for Internet Numbers<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><image001.png><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">_______________________________________________<br>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"><br>
<br>
2019-05-2916:32:20</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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