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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body bgcolor=white lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:windowtext'>Hi Fernando,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:windowtext'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:windowtext'>Thanks for the discussion.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:windowtext'>Many feel as you do, that unused addresses should be returned to ARIN for subsequent distribution to those in need.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:windowtext'>Unfortunately, that policy was not successful in bringing unused addresses into actual use by those in need.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:windowtext'>The community decided to harness the profit motive to incentive this process, and by all accounts it is working.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:windowtext'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:windowtext'>Unfortunately the profit motive also incentivizes fraudulent plundering of the waiting list pool.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:windowtext'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:windowtext'>So I am happy to discuss the correct balancing of things to prevent fraud but allow the market to continue to drive us towards the desirable ends of accurate registration and efficient use.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:windowtext'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:windowtext'>Since the /19 is the threshold number of sorts for flipping, I could accept a /20 as the maximum size.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:windowtext'>I think a 2 year wait is reasonable, but I don’t see the additional benefit as worth the distinction of ARIN space into more classes.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:windowtext'>And making it more complicated with multiple waiting periods is even less desirable, IMO.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:windowtext'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:windowtext'>Regards,<br>Mike<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:windowtext'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:windowtext'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:windowtext'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:windowtext'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='color:windowtext'>From:</span></b><span style='color:windowtext'> ARIN-PPML <arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net> <b>On Behalf Of </b>Fernando Frediani<br><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, May 29, 2019 10:50 AM<br><b>To:</b> arin-ppml@arin.net<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [arin-ppml] Waiting List IPv4 blocks transferred after issuance<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>On 29/05/2019 11:31, Mike Burns wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:windowtext'>Orgs will wait out any period, sitting with unused addresses until they reach the resale date. Not efficient use.</span><o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><p>If it's not a legacy resource and if ARIN gets to know about it, it may just recover this addresses even if the resource holder is paying it correctly. That's how it should work.<o:p></o:p></p><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:windowtext'><br><br></span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:windowtext'>People will lease unused addresses to others and Whois accuracy will suffer if they can’t resell them. Not accurate registration.</span><o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><p>If people lease they prove they have no use for the addresses and again ARIN should recover them at any time. If whois is inaccurate, well it is their fault and not policies fault. They must bind to the current rules not the other way round.<o:p></o:p></p><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:windowtext'><br><br></span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:windowtext'>I think we should give everybody currently on the list up to a /19 and then restrict new entries to a /22.</span><o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><p class=MsoNormal>Fair to discuss this scenario, although I still think /19 is too much. Agree on /22 for new entries.<br><br><o:p></o:p></p><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:windowtext'>I think a 5 year resale wait is too long, based on the paltry resales of prior waiting-list subnets smaller than /19.</span><o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><p class=MsoNormal>It may be long, but 2 years seems a little short and 'acceptable' for a fraudster. Perhaps something in between.<br><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:windowtext'>I support a /22 restriction for new entrants, a /19 max for current list members, and maintenance of the 12 month wait for simplicity’s sake.</span><o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><p class=MsoNormal>What about discuss /22 for new entrants, /20 for current list members and 36, 42 or 48 months for transfers ? Seems more reasonable in my view and cover most aspects of this discussion.<br><br><o:p></o:p></p><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:windowtext'><br><br></span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:windowtext'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:windowtext'>Regards,<br>Mike</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:windowtext'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:windowtext'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:windowtext'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:windowtext'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='color:windowtext'>From:</span></b><span style='color:windowtext'> ARIN-PPML <a href="mailto:arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net"><arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net></a> <b>On Behalf Of </b>Fernando Frediani<br><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, May 29, 2019 8:51 AM<br><b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:arin-ppml@arin.net">arin-ppml@arin.net</a><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [arin-ppml] Waiting List IPv4 blocks transferred after issuance</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p><p>+1<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>On 28/05/2019 23:52, Owen DeLong wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal>Mike, <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Yes and no. I believe that the lack of legacy holders for any blocks issued under 4.1.8 reduces the need for the market.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Defunct organizations can easily be reclaimed in this space because they stop paying their ARIN bill.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Eliminating the resale value of these addresses won’t really encourage squatting on them and limiting the size of organization and size of block that can benefit from 4.1.8 further helps to reduce the potential for hoarding.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>I realize that as a broker, any address that can’t be monetized is a lost opportunity for your organization, but I think there’s plenty of addresses out there that haven’t been processed through 4.1.8, so I don’t think limiting the resale potential of such blocks to reduce fraud is a bad idea.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Owen<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><br><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=MsoNormal>On May 28, 2019, at 12:46 , Mike Burns <<a href="mailto:mike@iptrading.com">mike@iptrading.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>The percentages of blocks transferred takes a significant leap at the /19 size.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Below that, the percentages are all below 7%.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>At /19 and above, the percentages are all above 21%.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Seems like a natural demarcation for maximum block size, but prices do continue to rise.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>While we want to fight fraud, we should still remember the underlying reasons for the Ipv4 transfer market apply to these addresses as well.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>That is, the market provides incentives for efficient use and accurate registration.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Regards,<br>Mike<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><div><p class=MsoNormal><b>From:</b><span class=apple-converted-space> </span>ARIN-PPML <<a href="mailto:arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net"><span style='color:#954F72'>arin-ppml-bounces@arin.net</span></a>><span class=apple-converted-space> </span><b>On Behalf Of<span class=apple-converted-space> </span></b>John Curran<br><b>Sent:</b><span class=apple-converted-space> </span>Tuesday, May 28, 2019 1:53 PM<br><b>To:</b><span class=apple-converted-space> </span>ARIN-PPML List <<a href="mailto:arin-ppml@arin.net"><span style='color:#954F72'>arin-ppml@arin.net</span></a>><br><b>Subject:</b><span class=apple-converted-space> </span>[arin-ppml] Waiting List IPv4 blocks transferred after issuance<br><b>Importance:</b><span class=apple-converted-space> </span>High<o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Folks - <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>It occurred to me that it might be useful to have a quick summary of waiting list blocks issued and subsequently transferred. <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Attached is the distribution (count per prefix size) of all blocks that have been issued via ARIN's waiting list policy and subsequently transferred via NRPM 8.2/8.3/8.4 policy.<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>FYI,<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>/John<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>John Curran<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>President and CEO<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>American Registry for Internet Numbers<o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><image001.png><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'>_______________________________________________<br>ARIN-PPML<br>You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to<br>the ARIN Public Policy Mailing List (</span><a href="mailto:ARIN-PPML@arin.net"><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#954F72'>ARIN-PPML@arin.net</span></a><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'>).<br>Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:<br></span><a href="https://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml"><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#954F72'>https://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml</span></a><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'><br>Please contact<span class=apple-converted-space> </span></span><a href="mailto:info@arin.net"><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'>info@arin.net</span></a><span class=apple-converted-space><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'> </span></span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'>if you experience any issues.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote></div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><br><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>ARIN-PPML<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>the ARIN Public Policy Mailing List (<a href="mailto:ARIN-PPML@arin.net">ARIN-PPML@arin.net</a>).<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><a href="https://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml">https://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Please contact <a href="mailto:info@arin.net">info@arin.net</a> if you experience any issues.<o:p></o:p></pre></blockquote></blockquote></div></body></html>